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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/9/2009 5:46:27 PM   
JohnSteed1967


Posts: 304
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		I have to go with PAHunk on this, Silver and Gold both while they may rise and fall with the market, are still gonna hold value. as of yet you've never heard of either of them being worthless?

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/9/2009 5:52:42 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Let me know when silver and gold start paying 7.5 % dividends on what you own. Then I might be interested.

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/9/2009 5:56:39 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Let me know when silver and gold start paying 7.5 % dividends on what you own. Then I might be interested.


LOL.   You are funny.

T-bills are not where near that return.   Nor are CDs, same with Money Markets.  As to stocks- most have lost value for 3 years straight.  



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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/9/2009 5:59:22 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks. But I am living very nicely on the dividends from my investments. Commodities would not give me that option.

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/9/2009 8:13:27 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If you bought gold last week at $1200.00 an ounce, you just lost a bunch of money. It is trading today at $1120..


The value of gold is not fixed but rises and falls with speculator demand. What is the major vehicle for that demand? Is it not the Exchange Traded Fund GLD? And is not the main vehicle for trading of silver the Exchange Traded Fund SLV? Are these Funds not subject to short selling?

Large buyers and sellers - various mutual funds, hedge funds, and other speculators - trade in and out of those ETFs with digital speed. The ETFs are relatively small and are pledged to buy/sell an ounce of gold/silver at market price to match the dollar/euro/yen investments or withdrawals throughout the trading period. The ETF room is crowded, the exit door is narrow. When panic sets in, for whatever reason, all the big computerized traders will be shoving and pushing to get out through the narrow door at pretty much the same time. The price of the real commodity will drop like a stone. Remember oil at $150 per barrel?

The price of any commodity in this digital age is pegged to the supply and demand of speculators playing "bigger fool than me." Go to the library and read about the Great Tulip Mania of the 18th(?) Century. A single tulip bulb achieved a fantastic value.... 10,000 Guilders or whatever in Holland before the market collapsed. A bubble is a bubble is a bubble. The price of any commodity depends only on what the last buyer was willing to pay...... if there are any buyers left. That's the rub. No commodity has intrinsic value in the market place. Everything gets flipped. Everybody has their eye on the next guy. Watching every move, the quantity of every buy/sell order that comes across the tape. Think of all those people who were flipping houses .... when the music stopped. And haven't we learned? The music always stops, succa! Sweet Jesus, haven't we learned about mania and bubbles after the dotcom IPO and housing mortgage bubbles?

just my opinion....caveat emptor... buyer watch your ass.

Vincent

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/9/2009 8:21:03 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

I have to go with PAHunk on this, Silver and Gold both while they may rise and fall with the market, are still gonna hold value. as of yet you've never heard of either of them being worthless?


Check me on this but I believe gold fell to about $250 per ounce in 1985 after reaching $1000 in 1980. So, if you bought gold at the top in 1980 you now have a return of about what 11% total over 29 years. You think that is a store of value? Nah. Hasn't even kept up with inflation. Enjoy the ride but jump before the music stops.

Vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/9/2009 8:25:44 PM >

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/10/2009 1:35:55 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The only gold I have, is a useless wedding ring, and that is only being kept for the purpose of melting it down and inlaying it into an etched iron surround, where it will be safe and neutralized, and hey, made worthless. I am doing this purely for the appearance contrast of the metals, and for the historical context of iron and gold, namely, how much iron was used to win small amounts of gold, and, I have pure iron to work with.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 12/10/2009 1:36:35 AM >

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/10/2009 6:20:30 AM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

I have to go with PAHunk on this, Silver and Gold both while they may rise and fall with the market, are still gonna hold value. as of yet you've never heard of either of them being worthless?


Check me on this but I believe gold fell to about $250 per ounce in 1985 after reaching $1000 in 1980. So, if you bought gold at the top in 1980 you now have a return of about what 11% total over 29 years. You think that is a store of value? Nah. Hasn't even kept up with inflation. Enjoy the ride but jump before the music stops.

Vincent


shhhh don't tell him that.  His contention is he is not a speculator so it's ok.  We seem to be missing the point that the speculators are the ones that drive the price and when they crash it (and it will,  it runs in cycles just like everything else) his will tank as well.

If you look at the numbers through the years gold stays pretty consistent somewhere between 300 and 500 and ounce.  If you buy in that range your pretty safe

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/10/2009 7:25:04 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

I have to go with PAHunk on this, Silver and Gold both while they may rise and fall with the market, are still gonna hold value. as of yet you've never heard of either of them being worthless?


Check me on this but I believe gold fell to about $250 per ounce in 1985 after reaching $1000 in 1980. So, if you bought gold at the top in 1980 you now have a return of about what 11% total over 29 years. You think that is a store of value? Nah. Hasn't even kept up with inflation. Enjoy the ride but jump before the music stops.

Vincent


shhhh don't tell him that.  His contention is he is not a speculator so it's ok.  We seem to be missing the point that the speculators are the ones that drive the price and when they crash it (and it will,  it runs in cycles just like everything else) his will tank as well.

If you look at the numbers through the years gold stays pretty consistent somewhere between 300 and 500 and ounce.  If you buy in that range your pretty safe



Old Frank Roosevelt thought it necessary to fix it at $35 I think. And the goldbugs dream of us being back on the gold standard :)

Vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/10/2009 7:27:56 AM >

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/10/2009 7:27:29 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

The only gold I have, is a useless wedding ring, and that is only being kept for the purpose of melting it down and inlaying it into an etched iron surround, where it will be safe and neutralized, and hey, made worthless. I am doing this purely for the appearance contrast of the metals, and for the historical context of iron and gold, namely, how much iron was used to win small amounts of gold, and, I have pure iron to work with.


I hope you are using Spanish iron and Inca gold :)

Vincent

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/10/2009 8:42:50 PM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		lol,  I was only going back as far as our reference to the price in the early 80's.  It's stayed in that slot pretty constant.

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 12:40:03 AM   
pahunkboy


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Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Thanks. But I am living very nicely on the dividends from my investments. Commodities would not give me that option.


You are the exception.   Many have had their retirement wiped out.

It would be no big deal, but some of these people are in their 60s and 70s.  So they start over..... in the wonderful 80s- the elderly were in CDs not stocks/mutual funds.



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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 12:45:21 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

I have to go with PAHunk on this, Silver and Gold both while they may rise and fall with the market, are still gonna hold value. as of yet you've never heard of either of them being worthless?


Check me on this but I believe gold fell to about $250 per ounce in 1985 after reaching $1000 in 1980. So, if you bought gold at the top in 1980 you now have a return of about what 11% total over 29 years. You think that is a store of value? Nah. Hasn't even kept up with inflation. Enjoy the ride but jump before the music stops.

Vincent


The money supply has 10 folded since then.

Since 2000-  gold has tripped.

Since TARP- silver has doubled.

I almost agreed with the paper gold people- until TARP.  When they passed TARP- I knew the $ was trashed.

....some of us are awfully smug- when history proves Weimar and Argentina - and dozens of others fiat paper gold failed.

If the dollar is as good as gold- then I want GOLD.

I only wish I had started stacking a few years sooner.  Like before the DOW ran to 14000, then dropped to 9000.

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 12:46:26 AM   
pahunkboy


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Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		and another thing.

I do not want paper roses!

Only REAL roses for me!


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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 1:15:44 AM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline 		~fr~

The rise in gold and silver is largely due to their use as "safe" investments. Because people are uncertain about the economy, there has been a flight to quality. This is also why there has also been a major increase in bond prices. However, current indicators suggest that the worst is either over, or very near over (unemployment peaks after the recovery has begun). The smart move would be to start shopping around for new investments. I would wager that gold will be 50% of what it is now in two years time (adjusted for inflation).

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 7:50:47 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

I have to go with PAHunk on this, Silver and Gold both while they may rise and fall with the market, are still gonna hold value. as of yet you've never heard of either of them being worthless?


Check me on this but I believe gold fell to about $250 per ounce in 1985 after reaching $1000 in 1980. So, if you bought gold at the top in 1980 you now have a return of about what 11% total over 29 years. You think that is a store of value? Nah. Hasn't even kept up with inflation. Enjoy the ride but jump before the music stops.

Vincent


Since 2000-  gold has tripped.



But it is nearly the same as 1980 which all goes to disprove your theory of a store of value. Like the sea, it fluctuates. High tide and low.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 8:01:56 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		In origin, gold was the only thing known to the anciencts that would not rust and corrode away with time.  A "noble" metal that could only be dissolved with "aqua regia" (mix of hydrocloric and nitric acids).

Trivia.. the original definition of a dollar was a coin containing one gram of gold.  A dime was a coin containing one gram of silver. Further trivia, the metric system has been the official system of measurement for the United States since 1789.  Another federal law never enforced.

Stefan


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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 8:56:29 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

In origin, gold was the only thing known to the anciencts that would not rust and corrode away with time.  A "noble" metal that could only be dissolved with "aqua regia" (mix of hydrocloric and nitric acids).

Trivia.. the original definition of a dollar was a coin containing one gram of gold.  A dime was a coin containing one gram of silver. Further trivia, the metric system has been the official system of measurement for the United States since 1789.  Another federal law never enforced.

Stefan




Tried to teach the metric system to my high school chemistry students. You would not believe the consternation and confusion over all the millis, micros, and centis, even though we use the system of 10,100,1000 in our money. Arrrgghhhrr!!

Vincent



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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 1:46:05 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Metallurgical fetishism? That's my answer, generally . . . .. (My ex, who was a numismatist & a freak about big rusting chunks of iron, is the one who came up with that phrase . . . . )

&, please note: Peak Gold . . . . .. It's a new thought to me, so I haven't worked out much of anything about what it 'means' . . . .

Have fun!

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RE: Why Gold ? - 12/11/2009 7:10:14 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

I have to go with PAHunk on this, Silver and Gold both while they may rise and fall with the market, are still gonna hold value. as of yet you've never heard of either of them being worthless?


Check me on this but I believe gold fell to about $250 per ounce in 1985 after reaching $1000 in 1980. So, if you bought gold at the top in 1980 you now have a return of about what 11% total over 29 years. You think that is a store of value? Nah. Hasn't even kept up with inflation. Enjoy the ride but jump before the music stops.

Vincent


Since 2000-  gold has tripped.



But it is nearly the same as 1980 which all goes to disprove your theory of a store of value. Like the sea, it fluctuates. High tide and low.

Vincent


Around that time COMEX rules changed.  Today JP Morgan and Goldman Saches short 22 times the amount of silver that actually exists.   They are doing so as an agent of the government- and stimulus funds can be thought to be paying some of this.

For gold to balance with true inflation from 1980- it would need to be $6700.00.   Take livinng expenses- cost of running a household- that would give you an idea.  $50 in a card in 1980 was impressive gift- today it is like- man- what can I pay with that?

Now if you examine CORE govt inflation numbers that puts the number at $2500- $3000.

Even JP Morgan is forecasting $2500 gold.

Now- consider that we are about to go to war with Iran.   Why?   They snubbed out petro dollar- and 1-10-10, oil will no longer be sold in dollars.
So that leaves bombs and good will to back the dollar.

Would you happen to have any old silver dollars or halfs you would like to sell- that would be a deal for me?

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