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People ignore climate change science just like they ign... - 12/12/2009 2:39:59 AM

Brain

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How can people ignore/deny the science? What is it with people that ignore climate change science just like they ignore evolution and millions of years old bones.?

A new UCS study examining the economic impact of AB 32, California's groundbreaking global warming law, shows that its cost to small businesses will be small and manageable. This study takes an innovative approach to the controversial subject by highlighting a Los Angeles area Mexican restaurant.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/big_picture_solutions/AB-32-and-CA-small-business.html?utm_source=SP&utm_medium=more&utm_campaign=casmallbiz-12-11-09-more[size=2

Urge Federal Agencies to Let Scientists Speak Out
Federal scientists must feel free to speak out about research findings that impact our lives. Please urge federal agency leaders to improve their agencies’ media policies.

Scientific Integrity

Political interference in federal government science is weakening our nation's ability to respond to the complex challenges we face. Because policy makers depend on impartial research to make informed decisions, we are mobilizing scientists and citizens alike to push for reforms that will enable our leaders to fully protect our health, safety, and environment.

http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/solutions/big_picture_solutions/scientific-integrity-progress.html

Scientific Integrity Progress Report
As a presidential candidate, Barack Obama made many specific promises to stop political interference in science. So has the Obama administration’s action matched its rhetoric?

http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/solutions/big_picture_solutions/scientific-integrity-progress.html

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RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 3:10:55 AM

pahunkboy

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So evolution and global warming occur at the same pace.

(in reply to Brain)

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RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 3:11:34 AM

Brain

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Sarah Palin attacks Al Gore again.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#34386916

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 3

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 3:13:01 AM

Brain

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They are mutually exclusive so I don't what you're talking about.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

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RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 3:38:27 AM

eyesopened

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Well climate change and evolution aren't mutually exclusive. Species who are adaptive to deal with climate change survive to pass on their genes and isn't that kinda how evolution works? That we exist is testament that our ancestors were successful in previous climate changes. Perhaps you meant they are different subjects or topics?

But on topic, what I see happening is similar to what so many people do with their own illnesses. For example: They are told by their doctor (a person of science who they supposedly trust) to take their medicine for two weeks. They get a prescription for two weeks worth of medicine. They feel better in three days. They stop taking the medicine. They are usually shocked to have a 'relapse' later.

That climate change is "feeling better" does not mean it is cured.

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RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 4:48:12 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

But on topic, what I see happening is similar to what so many people do with their own illnesses. For example: They are told by their doctor (a person of science who they supposedly trust) to take their medicine for two weeks. They get a prescription for two weeks worth of medicine. They feel better in three days. They stop taking the medicine. They are usually shocked to have a 'relapse' later.

Interesting comparison. That's how the antibiotic immune strains of TB and chlamydia got started, isn't it?

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RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 9:36:27 AM

starshineowned

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Greetings..

I sort of view this as the expert forensic testimonies at a murder trial. The same evidence given to both sides looking for factual truths..yet you can't get the prosecutions expert to agree with the defenses expert. Now how the hell does that happen given that both are in the same field of medical science?

I do not and never have doubted that the climate is changing, and mother earth may very well end up flicking off a bunch of us like parasitic fleas. I do have trouble believing experts on both sides of the scientific equations when none of them agree as to our (humans) actual cause or helping hand in this process. Depends on what side really that butters your bread.

Do we know certain things that we emit into the air are harmful to humans? Sure, and on that premise we should globally try and reduce said emissions of whatever that is but to state we are so omnipotent that we can affect the global climate that has been changing since earths formation? That is just a tad far fetched to me. :/

starshine

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RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 9:50:35 AM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

Greetings..

I sort of view this as the expert forensic testimonies at a murder trial. The same evidence given to both sides looking for factual truths..yet you can't get the prosecutions expert to agree with the defenses expert. Now how the hell does that happen given that both are in the same field of medical science?

I do not and never have doubted that the climate is changing, and mother earth may very well end up flicking off a bunch of us like parasitic fleas. I do have trouble believing experts on both sides of the scientific equations when none of them agree as to our (humans) actual cause or helping hand in this process. Depends on what side really that butters your bread.

Do we know certain things that we emit into the air are harmful to humans? Sure, and on that premise we should globally try and reduce said emissions of whatever that is but to state we are so omnipotent that we can affect the global climate that has been changing since earths formation? That is just a tad far fetched to me. :/

starshine

The vast overwhelmingly scientific consensus is that global warming is man-made and potentially very dangerous. Check out the related wikipedia articles, which cite 100s of sources.

Frankly, there's nothing far-fetched about the influence that humans are having on the environment, given the massive transformations that humans have enacted. Compare a forest to a city, noting when the latter replaces the former. Count the number of factories, cars, planes. It's much, much more far-fetched to believe that humans are not having an effect on the environment.

(in reply to starshineowned)

Post #: 8

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 10:02:28 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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It's kind of irrelevant if we are causing climate change or if we are adding to it; judged in comparison with past geological changes. The earth wasn't always a hospitable place for humans so comparing the short term changes that we know have occurred to geological changes throughout the earth’s history is pointless. CO2 and other emissions are proven greenhouse gases (ones which trap heat) you can prove this in a laboratory. Also you can obviously estimate that CO2 emissions have exploded since the industrial revolution. We know how much we currently produce and we know how long we have been producing it. We can estimate how much of this is absorbed by sea or the trees (from what we know of those ecological systems). Thus it is easy for us to establish our actions have caused an imbalance that didn’t exist before and will cause a tipping point.

Your reasoning is backwards because if we were omnipotent we could do what we want and not have those things we do affect a pre-existing finite balance. We can easily fuck up the earth it doesn't take much effort. I think you are underestimating how we as a species are the worst thing to happen to every other living creature on this earth. We take it for granted and we take for granted what positive effects the ecology we are killing off year on year has. There is no place on earth not affected by us, we are the victims of our own success because other species generally stick to certain areas that suit them whereas we were given/have evolved this ability to change the area to suit us. We will soon find that like other species are bound to areas of the earth and their survival relies on those areas remaining the same we are bound by the earth.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/12/2009 10:07:08 AM >

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RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 10:04:07 AM

pahunkboy

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like we have control of evolution!

What a obtuse comparison. Golly- we might have prevented wisdom teeth and gall bladders from changing.

Hoard gold. You know things are deteriorating when Wall street paid schills are on THIS board.

(in reply to Silence8)

Post #: 10

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 10:12:34 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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I would question their strategy because they could influence more people by going elsewhere considering the board represents a small fraction of humanity.

You should just be grateful there are people who haven’t yet given up on those in the dark not wanting to hear the truth.

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Post #: 11

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 2:51:28 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Sarah Palin attacks Al Gore again.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#34386916

"We're...........Off to see the Wizzard...."

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Post #: 12

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 3:55:03 PM

NeedToUseYou

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I don't even care at this point whether climate change is real or not. It has zero impact on the path we should take, IMO.

which is...
1. work towards relatively clean energy independence.
2. Work towards resource independence.

Those are economic objectives, those are also requirements for a more peaceful, prosperous world.

Is Global warming man made, fudged data, or caused by external events, I don't know, and it doesn't matter, because there are other reasons to do the very same things that would reduce our polluting ways.

As in if the term Global Warming never happened upon the scene. We would still have ample reason, to develop alternate forms of energy. We would still have the need for creating a more balanced consumption cycle.

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 13

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 4:58:41 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

It's kind of irrelevant if we are causing climate change or if we are adding to it; judged in comparison with past geological changes. The earth wasn't always a hospitable place for humans so comparing the short term changes that we know have occurred to geological changes throughout the earth’s history is pointless. CO2 and other emissions are proven greenhouse gases (ones which trap heat) you can prove this in a laboratory. Also you can obviously estimate that CO2 emissions have exploded since the industrial revolution. We know how much we currently produce and we know how long we have been producing it. We can estimate how much of this is absorbed by sea or the trees (from what we know of those ecological systems). Thus it is easy for us to establish our actions have caused an imbalance that didn’t exist before and will cause a tipping point.

Your reasoning is backwards because if we were omnipotent we could do what we want and not have those things we do affect a pre-existing finite balance. We can easily fuck up the earth it doesn't take much effort. I think you are underestimating how we as a species are the worst thing to happen to every other living creature on this earth. We take it for granted and we take for granted what positive effects the ecology we are killing off year on year has. There is no place on earth not affected by us, we are the victims of our own success because other species generally stick to certain areas that suit them whereas we were given/have evolved this ability to change the area to suit us. We will soon find that like other species are bound to areas of the earth and their survival relies on those areas remaining the same we are bound by the earth.

I heard the OP's opening statement made by a TV commentator who was implying ignorance on the part of AGW skeptics to a certain portion of the population, so I suspect that is the OP's intent. He s not really making a comparison between the two disciplines. He is trying to link the AGW skeptics to Evolution skeptics. I think he is just being snarky. But your post is more thoughtful so let me reply to a little of what you have said. At least you do not talk in bumper sticker slogans.

Isn't it a fact that water vapor has a much greater greenhouse effect than CO2? I think you will find it is.

It is also true that the Medieval Warming Period took place before the Industrial Revolution without the high CO2 content, so maybe something else is at work.

Furthermore, the data from the Vostok ice core borings seem to indicate that at the very least there is no proven cause and effect relationship between CO2 levels and deglaciation (warming):

According to Barnola et al. (1991) and Petit et al. (1999) these measurements indicate that, at the beginning of the deglaciations, the CO2 increase either was in phase or lagged by less than ~1000 years with respect to the Antarctic temperature, whereas it clearly lagged behind the temperature at the onset of the glaciations.

It appears the CO2 content did not precede the deglaciation warmings. Was there something else at work?

But let's assume for the moment what the great majority of scientists are believed to assume: that CO2 is the culprit. Isn't it also true that the industrial revolution has accommodated almost an exponential growth of human population that Malthus warned against? More than he could have imagined? The population of our species has exceeded 6 Billion and is rapidly growing to 9 Billion. You rightly point out we are the victims of our own success and we are de-naturalizing the planet by our growth. We have turned forests into cities and we are rapidly crowding out the larger land mammals and over farming the seas. We have reduced the green carbon sink enormously, I hear.

I am not willing to admit CO2 is the problem but if it is I don't see how we can reduce industrial activity, farming, and the use of carbon based fuels with such a rapidly growing world population. I wonder if population growth is not the real issue. Maybe Malthus was right that the exponential increase in population growth will lead to conflicts over diminished resources. We just have to throw more people off the island.

We haven't had a good industrial sized World War in 65 years. All we have are these little piddling skirmishes with terrorists. Crap. that won't help the climate change. Too many damn people.

I think it is inevitable we will fuck up the Earth. I have said elsewhere there have been five mass extinctions. I do not see that our species is so special it is destined to survive. I am betting on the roaches myself.

Vincent

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 5:40:12 PM

Loki45

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It's easy to deny flawed science that has been manipulated by people with their own agendas.

If the planet were warming, the Midwest would not be threatened with a mini ice age as they are now.

Also when you conduct research into global warming, it doesn't help to study only 5% of glaciers that might be melting and ignore the other 95% that are unchanged or growing in size.

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Post #: 15

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 5:59:26 PM

Brain

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I agree with what you said but he said they occur at the same pace and I don't what that means and I don't know how he measures the pace. There is no doubt in my mind because the climate is changing some species will survive and others will not, I consider that to be a fact and I agree that's how evolution works.

It's very important to take a prescription as prescribed. Similarly I think it would be a very good idea to listen to what the scientists are saying and take global warming seriously before irreversible damage occurs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Well climate change and evolution aren't mutually exclusive. Species who are adaptive to deal with climate change survive to pass on their genes and isn't that kinda how evolution works? That we exist is testament that our ancestors were successful in previous climate changes. Perhaps you meant they are different subjects or topics?

But on topic, what I see happening is similar to what so many people do with their own illnesses. For example: They are told by their doctor (a person of science who they supposedly trust) to take their medicine for two weeks. They get a prescription for two weeks worth of medicine. They feel better in three days. They stop taking the medicine. They are usually shocked to have a 'relapse' later.

That climate change is "feeling better" does not mean it is cured.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 16

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 6:06:49 PM

Brain

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We can affect the global climate and we are. Because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not happening. I believe China is polluting more than the United States now. Wait until China's economy and India's economy are running at full capacity and then you're going to see a real climate change mess that we' re going to have on our hands.

(in reply to starshineowned)

Post #: 17

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 6:16:03 PM

Brain

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We did not have control of evolution in the past because we didn't have the intellectual capacity. Science has made significant advancements and there is no doubt in my mind if we wanted to control evolution of humans in the future we could do so very easily.

Indeed, we do it now when we breed dogs or horses or cows. Those animals are much different now than they otherwise would have been because of breeding. So it is happening now even though you don't realize this fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

like we have control of evolution!

What a obtuse comparison. Golly- we might have prevented wisdom teeth and gall bladders from changing.

Hoard gold. You know things are deteriorating when Wall street paid schills are on THIS board.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 18

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 6:23:52 PM

Brain

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Wouldn't that be great if she debated Al Gore in Hamilton? The tickets would sell out no problem and Hamilton would have raised lots of money for those two hospitals. They got Bill Clinton to speak in Hamilton so I don't see why they can't get Al Gore. Maybe they could televise it and make it a pay-per-view event like Jerry Springer then they could raise even more money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Sarah Palin attacks Al Gore again.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#34386916

"We're...........Off to see the Wizzard...."

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 19

RE: People ignore climate change science just like they... - 12/12/2009 6:29:15 PM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

like we have control of evolution!

What a obtuse comparison. Golly- we might have prevented wisdom teeth and gall bladders from changing.

Hoard gold. You know things are deteriorating when Wall street paid schills are on THIS board.

Gold will mean nothing if the world's food supplies run out. Maybe, try twinkie bars.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 20

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