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Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 3:52:34 AM

sunshinemiss

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Hi everyone,
This thread is based on a bit of brain torture I was going through on the "what are you thinking" thread. The salient part is below:

quote:

There's something about being submissive. Wanting to please and yet knowing HOW I want to please (Is this kindness? Our own personal quirks?). *This way rather than that way. And how the other person's creativity brings out submission rather than kindness. Following, letting go, trusting. Entrusting thoughts, actions, etc. to someone else.

To take this a bit further.

There is a certain type of service that a person enjoys. For example, you enjoy bringing someone their slippers, removing their shoes, giving them pedicures. It makes you feel good because you LIKE doing that kind of service. In fact, you go to the local nursing home and give the residents pedicures and you feel good. This is kindness based on your alturistic AND submissive / helpful nature.

And then there is your M-type that you give a pedicure to as well. That is part of your service to the M-type. That is submission.... maybe. You are doing what you enjoy and it makes you feel good to do this type of service.

And the M-type wants you to (after you wash your hands - wink) paint the living room. You dislike painting. You in fact hate painting but you do it because you have been ordered to do it. You don't enjoy it, but you do your best. This is submitting to another's will rather than your own. Cause let's face it, you'd rather be checking out new nail polish for next week's pedicure fest at the nursing home. You get a secondary thrill from it because the ONLY reason you are doing it is to please your M-type.

There is something about submitting in ways that are not about you feeling good... about the secondary joy of pleasing another person that is DIFFERENT than the type of service that you enjoy doing and brings you satisfaction, compliments, etc. (not really submision is it? Or is it?)

I'm not sure what the question is... but this is what is bopping around my head. The service one enjoys doing versus the service one does for their M-type that one does not directly enjoy.

What do you all think?

Best,
sunshine

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Post #: 1

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 3:58:02 AM

Aileen1968

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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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I hate, absolutely hate doing laundry. It is one of those unending evils. You do five loads and the next day there's more to do.
But....I like doing his laundry. I put care into it. Something I hate to do has become enjoyable for me when I'm doing it for him.
Same with food shopping. And projects that he's told me to do around the house. They have become enjoyable when I know it's done for him.

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RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 6:19:27 AM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

There is something about submitting in ways that are not about you feeling good... about the secondary joy of pleasing another person that is DIFFERENT than the type of service that you enjoy doing and brings you satisfaction, compliments, etc. (not really submision is it? Or is it?)

I'm not sure what the question is... but this is what is bopping around my head. The service one enjoys doing versus the service one does for their M-type that one does not directly enjoy.

What do you all think?

Best,
sunshine

I've always *done nice things* for people because I want to....whatever that reason might be. It could be that I'd simply not feel good about myself if I didn't. I do some things for my children because, 'though I might not actively enjoy it, I'd rather do it than not. It's ultimately about *me*.

I haven't ever equated *doing things for people* as submission. The only times I ever feel that I'm submitting , is when I'm having to do anything that I really wouldn't if I had the choice and was free.

In a way, even submitting to his choices is all about me , as I chose to have his decisions supercede mine.

agirl

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 3

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 6:42:48 AM

CarrieO

Posts: 2432
Joined: 1/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hi everyone,
This thread is based on a bit of brain torture I was going through on the "what are you thinking" thread. The salient part is below:

quote:

There's something about being submissive. Wanting to please and yet knowing HOW I want to please (Is this kindness? Our own personal quirks?). *This way rather than that way. And how the other person's creativity brings out submission rather than kindness. Following, letting go, trusting. Entrusting thoughts, actions, etc. to someone else.

To take this a bit further.

There is a certain type of service that a person enjoys. For example, you enjoy bringing someone their slippers, removing their shoes, giving them pedicures. It makes you feel good because you LIKE doing that kind of service. In fact, you go to the local nursing home and give the residents pedicures and you feel good. This is kindness based on your alturistic AND submissive / helpful nature.

Speaking as someone who enjoys the service side, I don't see this as submission. I see it as service.

And then there is your M-type that you give a pedicure to as well. That is part of your service to the M-type. That is submission.... maybe. You are doing what you enjoy and it makes you feel good to do this type of service.

Again, I don't see this as submission. To me, this is service.

And the M-type wants you to (after you wash your hands - wink) paint the living room. You dislike painting. You in fact hate painting but you do it because you have been ordered to do it. You don't enjoy it, but you do your best. This is submitting to another's will rather than your own. Cause let's face it, you'd rather be checking out new nail polish for next week's pedicure fest at the nursing home. You get a secondary thrill from it because the ONLY reason you are doing it is to please your M-type.

In my opinion, this example is where submission has kicked in. Performing a service you enjoy for the one you serve is easy...it doesn't require much in the way of submission. Being told by that same person to do something out of your area of expertise or enjoyment requires you to submit to that person's reasoning, understanding there's a purpose...even if it's just to bring you out of your comfort level.

There is something about submitting in ways that are not about you feeling good... about the secondary joy of pleasing another person that is DIFFERENT than the type of service that you enjoy doing and brings you satisfaction, compliments, etc. (not really submision is it? Or is it?)

Hmmm, great minds think alike?

I'm not sure what the question is... but this is what is bopping around my head. The service one enjoys doing versus the service one does for their M-type that one does not directly enjoy.

What do you all think?

I think it's not until I got the call at 10pm requesting me to come help him pack for a trip and clean up the place, even though I was busy, and staying up until 1am to get this all done even though I had a busy day ahead that submission kicks in. I didn't do that because I was dying to drive 30 mins. to his place at 10pm or because I wanted to spend my time with him packing and cleaning. I did it because he inspired my desire to submit to and please him. Plain and simple.
At least that's been my experience. Submission doesn't happen, for me, overnight and it hasn't happened in quite some time. Just my 2 cents...FWIW.

Best,
sunshine

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Post #: 4

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 6:56:55 AM

Underumam

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They way I understand it, service is a fruit of love. An act if you will, that's inspired by devotion to others. This is an act of submission to spiritual principles more than to another human being. But I suppose it can be both, depending upon the individual.

(in reply to CarrieO)

Post #: 5

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 7:22:07 AM

CarrieO

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One of my favorite quotes on service...

"Service is the rent we pay to be living. It is the very purpose of life and not something you do in your spare time."
~Marian Wright Edelman~

Yes, there are many different ways to express service...job, family, country...but regardless of whether or not it's for D/s purposes or to help your fellow man/woman, service is an ethical choice. Less to do with submission and more to do with choosing to follow a path of duty to others.

Interesting side note...lately I've been contacted by quite a few male subs who, when asked about their feelings on service, tell me they rarely do it for others (outside of D/s) because they don't see the reason to do so if they aren't getting something in return.

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Post #: 6

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 8:34:33 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

...What do you all think?...

that yielding to another's authority/control, without caveats like limits and safewords, is submission...getting pleasure from it or not being a whole different ball game.

sort of like yielding authority/control to the driver of the automobile once you get in the passenger seat. there is only one driver---your hands aren't on the wheel---and you submit your life into the hands of another, who controls a machine that could possibly kill you.
does the driver operate the vehicle EXACTLY the way you would, and it feels almost as if you are driving yourself? or is it handled in a completely different way that annoys you and scares you half to death---or anything in between? none of that changes the fact that you submitted to being a passenger and your life is under their control.

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Post #: 7

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 8:52:56 AM

sweetsub1957

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~Fast Reply~
I truly enjoy submitting, but it's a different quality of submission when it's something I wouldn't ordinarily like doing. If I don't enjoy doing something, yet I enjoy the submission aspect of it, I enjoy doing it anyway. Dusting for instance. Eeeewwwww. lol

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Post #: 8

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 9:21:49 AM

LPslittleclip

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i am a service orinted slave and i enjoy doing laundry and such. the things i do for my Mistress pleasure and not my own i do to please Her and that is what im am for Her pleasure

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Post #: 9

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 9:42:02 AM

windchymes

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Recently when someone made a joke about coming home and finding the house "sparkly clean", I found myself washing windows....and I loathe washing windows. And I cleaned the oven on my hands and knees. Need I say anything about cleaning an oven...... Yes, knowing it's his and he's going to be happy when he sees it is a great motivator. And he was :)

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RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 10:02:51 AM

HisSweetElysium

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I've always "served" those I love. Dishes, laundry, cleaning, cooking especially since I seem to attract men who can't do this for themselves or conveniently forget once I'm in their life. The difference with D/s is I actually get credit for it, i.e. appreciated. Master thanks me and praises me for every last thing I do for Him, past vanilla bfs, hardly ever unless I specifically pointed out "hey I just did 3 loads of your laundry ya jerk, you can wait 5 min for dinner!"

From a purely philosophical stand point, there can be no such thing as a selfless act. In the end, the choices we make are those that give us fulfillment, even if that fulfillment lies only in knowing it was the right thing to do. A martyr gives up their life for a higher ideal, the choice is to sacrifice their life, or to save themselves and live with the knowledge of a compromised principle. Even when making that choice, they do the thing that gives them the greatest fulfillment and satisfaction, which is not always the most comfortable physically or even emotionally, but on a deeper level, is what they feel to be righteous. No one deliberately does the WRONG thing, KNOWING it will make them feel bad for doing it. There are finer points of discrimination of course, but this is a very old argument in philosophy, and most notables agree on my original point.

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RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 10:13:00 AM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisSweetElysium
From a purely philosophical stand point, there can be no such thing as a selfless act. In the end, the choices we make are those that give us fulfillment, even if that fulfillment lies only in knowing it was the right thing to do.
...
. Even when making that choice, they do the thing that gives them the greatest fulfillment and satisfaction, which is not always the most comfortable physically or even emotionally, but on a deeper level, is what they feel to be righteous.

I agree that there's no such thing as a purely selfless act, but in my experience, some of my most life-affirming moments have been when I've done things that were emotionally and/or ethically uncomfortable but I did them anyway because I had a fundamental sense that it was the right thing to do, regardless of whether or not I could reconcile it with everything else going on in my head. I'm not disagreeing with your point, just saying that, in my experience, the closer something seems to be to "selfless," the more rewarding, ironically, performing the act can be.

(in reply to HisSweetElysium)

Post #: 12

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 10:17:09 AM

HisSweetElysium

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisSweetElysium
From a purely philosophical stand point, there can be no such thing as a selfless act. In the end, the choices we make are those that give us fulfillment, even if that fulfillment lies only in knowing it was the right thing to do.
...
. Even when making that choice, they do the thing that gives them the greatest fulfillment and satisfaction, which is not always the most comfortable physically or even emotionally, but on a deeper level, is what they feel to be righteous.

I agree that there's no such thing as a purely selfless act, but in my experience, some of my most life-affirming moments have been when I've done things that were emotionally and/or ethically uncomfortable but I did them anyway because I had a fundamental sense that it was the right thing to do, regardless of whether or not I could reconcile it with everything else going on in my head. I'm not disagreeing with your point, just saying that, in my experience, the closer something seems to be to "selfless," the more rewarding, ironically, performing the act can be.

Indeed, often the right thing is not the easy thing ;)

< Message edited by HisSweetElysium -- 12/12/2009 10:19:54 AM >

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RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 1:06:44 PM

hejira92

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This kinda reminds me of those times when Master is playing with me and giving me lots of pain. I am NOT a pain slut. I hate pain.

At the most excruciating moments, He will lean in to me and ask, Are you having fun?

And I have to answer truthfully.

Truthfully, I hate it. I am NOT having fun! But....truthfully, I can hear His tone of voice, and see the pleasure He is taking in His eyes and in the expression on His face.

And I LOVE when I see that sadistic glee in His gaze. I LOVE knowing I am the vehicle for Him to enjoy and express this part of Him.

So, I have to answer, Yes, Sir, I am having fun. Because the service I am providing gives me joy that overshadows the pain and discomfort.

(and He also loves the mindfuck of me having to decide which emotion is stronger in me- another level that I have to take into account...)

So, of course He uses the "fact" that I am having fun to give me "more fun". Yikes!

Is this the kind of conundrum you mean, Sunny?

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RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 2:19:49 PM

sunshinemiss

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Hey everyone, lots of great fodder for thought here. I'm taking it in, and glad you all are participating with such well thought out responses.

There is something about doing the service that I love to do that makes me fulfilled in one way. And when I'm not permitted to do what I"m good at or what I enjoy, I can get terribly disappointed - I want to impress! I want you to think how good I am! *sigh* Back to scrubbing the floor. That can be disappointing and if done over and over it can be debillitating for me.

For me, I want to serve without being asked to. I want to give and have him surprised with what I give. And be pleased, of course. And I want him to want me to do the thing he needs done - but I honestly DON'T want him to frequently ask me to do things I'm bad at. It makes me feel like a failure - especially if it is over and over again and in conjunction with NOT being able to do something I can succeed at. (I'm still working this all through in my head). There is something about frequency, the level of support that I get if I'm not good at something, the amount of successes I have that factor here although I've not worked it out yet.

I like saying "Hey, I can do that for you if you want." And then his gratitude makes me feel good (I'm not a twue sub evidently. heh.) If he wants me to sew a button on his shirt, I'll gladly do it even though I'm not great at it. But if he had me sewing every night - *blech* I could not thrive in an environment like that. And it would kill my spirit.

Maybe my question is evolving into something about balance - the balance of doing what we are good at and doing what is a challenge - and possible failure.

Very interesting conversation. y'all have me thinking.

best,
sunshine

*edited for clarity.

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 12/12/2009 2:52:01 PM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 5:01:21 PM

hejira92

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He knows I am the opposite of domestic, yet, I have surprised Him by scrubbing His bathroom, cleaning and dusting, doing His laundry, etc. Like you said- if I had to do that daily, I would never survive. But, doing for Him as an "extra" service- I enjoyed it for the activity and I enjoyed it for imagining His response.

As for your fears of being asked to do things you are not good or "natural" at- if He knows you, He will want you to shine in all you do, therefore, He will not put you to tasks that will dampen your spirit. Challenging, yes. Expanding, yes. But harmful no.

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Post #: 16

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 6:31:50 PM

Kalista07

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Sunny... I think I get what you are talking about.... And I must say that Hejira, I understand that dilemma seriously..... The trials of having to live with a sadist... *sigh*

As I got into this relationship I had certain preconceived ideas about what things were "submissive".....and what things should be expected of me... Some of these meshed pretty well with my personality and my own neurosis. Things like, cleaning, organization, etc. In my mind it makes sense for these to mark my submission to Him.... However He sees it differently. In His mind, the times when I let those glasses sit in the sink for another day and lay naked in bed with Him, or allow myself to rest because I worked a 12 hour day, or allow Him to rub my back because it hurts......Now all of these things seem opposite to me of service or submission.....And I'm sure some of those of the One True Wayism around here would surely say it is not... However to Him these things are indicative of submission....
And Hejira's point about Him knowing you and putting you in a position in which you would thrive is dead on....That's the thing that works for us!! I think many times He knows me a little better than I know myself. Because while I want to do the dishes, and scrub the floors, and chase the cats who continue to cause dust to be on things....My body is not equipped for this.....
I have no idea if this made any sense of not....
Kali

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RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 6:48:36 PM

DesFIP

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I think that doing things you like, which the m type likes also is the best situation for a long lasting relationship. There is a faction which says submission is not submission unless the s type is unhappy doing it. I believe that is sadism, not d/s. A happy relationship is composed of two or more happy partners. If one is unhappy at being assigned only unlikable tasks, the relationship quickly becomes drudgery to that person, not something they are glad to be in.

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Post #: 18

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/12/2009 8:03:19 PM

littlewonder

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I am not a domestic person. I absolutely hate cooking, cleaning and all that goes along those lines but I do them because well...someone's gotta do it and it's never gonna get done otherwise. So I guess you could say I'm service oriented for the simple fact that I cringe and do what needs to be done because the thought of it not being done is worse to me.

I do things for Master because I care for him and I like seeing him happy. I don't always like what he does to me or what he requires of me but I do it because it's what I agreed to when entering a relationship with him. I'll do my best to smile while all the time thinking I can't wait till it's over.

If he asks me if it's enjoyable to me I'm honest with him and I tell him I am not or that I am and then I ask him if he's content. If he is then it's worthwhile for me to continue.

But if one day I strike the lottery, I'm hiring a cook and a maid!

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Post #: 19

RE: Service - enjoyment versus submission - 12/13/2009 12:55:31 AM

wandersalone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

And I want him to want me to do the thing he needs done - but I honestly DON'T want him to frequently ask me to do things I'm bad at. It makes me feel like a failure - especially if it is over and over again and in conjunction with NOT being able to do something I can succeed at.

Hey Sunny

This thread is especially timely for me and in particular the part I have snipped above. I have been struggling within myself recently, feeling that I had failed because I struggled with some tasks I had to do. When I discussed this with Him he explained that for him it isn't so much about how well I do everything but more that I obey him and at least make a sincere attempt. This was a lightbulb moment for me as I had been grading myself I guess on how well (or badly) I did something when he was looking at something totally different.

Something I keep having to be reminded about is to let go of my attachment to outcomes as it can interfere with my service to Him and my submission. So instead of me focusing on how I wish he would ask me to do something I am good at so that he can appreciate my skills as I think that would please him more I have to remind myself that my obeying him is what is important and that he doesn't necessarily judge me on how well a task is done so much as in my willingness to do it (if that makes sense).

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