RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (Full Version)

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tsatske -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/12/2009 6:11:07 PM)

I do not normally post in 'politics and religion', though they are some of my favorite fodders for conversation, and I may have discovered why.

There are several posts on this thread which can be summed up to asking another poster 'who the fuck are you? I was having an A-B conversation'.

Newsflash, people:
There is a mailbox on the other side for everyone, if you wish to have an A-B conversation. If you post on the board, it is open for responses from all kinds of people.

I wouldn't have thought that needed pointing out.



MichiganHeadmast -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/12/2009 8:15:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

'War is an ugly thing. but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war is far worse.'

J.S. Mill.



Bears repeating.



MichiganHeadmast -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/12/2009 8:21:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

'War is an ugly thing. but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war is far worse.'

J.S. Mill.



And don't forget:

“World War is the second worst activity of mankind, the worst being acquiescence in slavery.” —William F. Buckley Jr.



tsatske -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/12/2009 9:21:12 PM)

I have been rather happy, and satisfied with my life, whenever i have been able to acquiese to slavery.



AnimusRex -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/12/2009 10:28:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It is simply not true that heroism and tragedy are mutually exclusive.
K.


This should be repeated a few more dozen times.

However righteous the cause, war is always horrible. Just when we start to think that everyone has learned that lesson, someone comes along and ignores it.


On a more partisan point, Obama's speech baffled most, because everyone somehow bought the argument that he was in fact an anti-American Moozlim pacifist.

Trouble is, Obama never got that memo. He is actually turning out to be a cautious centrist hawk, determined to uphold the Bush Admin's National Security State, and to continue the wars.

And he never said otherwise, really.



rulemylife -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 1:47:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: mastrcmmdr


Of course if you actually thought about an issue any deeper than how to make snarky reply you might actually ken what I said, which was not that it "has no ill effects".

To save you the calories of actually having to think and using Obama's own speech:

What would be a human tragedy, WWII or letting Hilter continue? (And you will probably argue that they would both be tragedies. I disagree. When an action is forced in order to prevent a tragedy, any negative consequences resulting from that action are not tragic, they are heroic.


I was replying to wilbeur. Who the fuck are you? Or is this another case of a schizophrenic poster?



Willbeur sometimes forgets what profile he is posting under.

How many screen names do have on this site now Willbeur, four, five?  I've lost track.

The only thing I can't figure out is why you keep doing it.  At first it was amusing seeing you putting up posts agreeing with yourself under different names, but it should be obvious to you by now that everyone recognizes your writing style and, in fact, you don't even try that hard to hide it anymore.

So what's the point?





Musicmystery -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 9:10:12 AM)

quote:

He is actually turning out to be a cautious centrist hawk, determined to uphold the Bush Admin's National Security State, and to continue the wars.

And he never said otherwise, really.


At least regarding Afghanistan, yes. He even campaigned on it.

Iraq at least is winding down. Beyond cutting back, we'll be in both places for years--a decade at least.

The gift that keeps on giving. Further, even if they aren't saying it, many leaders want us strongly in the region, period.



Sanity -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 9:23:43 AM)


Actually, he seems to be merely trying cover his ass and stay electable. Remember, Obama's own hand-picked general requested a lot more additional troops than he was given after months of indecisiveness on the matter on Obama's part. The new rules of engagement are causing rapid deterioration of the our soldiers' morale, and the on-again off-again prosecution of our CIA field agents can't be too good for their morale either.

With all things considered, I'm not convinced that Obama really is trying to win this war.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

This should be repeated a few more dozen times.

However righteous the cause, war is always horrible. Just when we start to think that everyone has learned that lesson, someone comes along and ignores it.


On a more partisan point, Obama's speech baffled most, because everyone somehow bought the argument that he was in fact an anti-American Moozlim pacifist.

Trouble is, Obama never got that memo. He is actually turning out to be a cautious centrist hawk, determined to uphold the Bush Admin's National Security State, and to continue the wars.

And he never said otherwise, really.



TheHeretic -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 9:49:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

With all things considered, I'm not convinced that Obama really is trying to win this war.




Sanity, there is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, unless you are one of the natives trying to drive out the invaders. 



Moonhead -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 9:52:44 AM)

It's strange how Kipling's stuff about Afghanistan has dated a lot less than any of the first world war poets, isn't it?



Musicmystery -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 9:57:25 AM)

Not really--large parts of Afghanistan are still essentially in the 4th century.



TheHeretic -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 10:03:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Not really--large parts of Afghanistan are still essentially in the 4th century.



Except for the weapons in the closet, of course...



Musicmystery -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 10:09:00 AM)

I think you mean "right down to the weapons in the closet."

More modern weapons, same idea.



Sanity -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 10:15:24 AM)


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Sanity, there is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, unless you are one of the natives trying to drive out the invaders. 



NorthernGent -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 10:29:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.



They may have arms/legs and need food to sustain themselves but they don't think like the nations trying to impose their values and traditions - and that's what really matters. You simply can't force people to think like you - just as you can't force a cat to live by the laws of a lion.

Interesting sig of yours Sanity considering you're talking like a liberal interventionist.

You can't simply slough off the past and expect a wholesale change in behaviour - the evidence is there for you to see (try any revolution you like and previous US ventures such as Russia in 1991).

Progress is organic and steady.

If you seriously believe that you can turn a tribal people into a democratic nation underpinned by Western values then you've been spending too much time listening to the propaganda machine and not enough studying the reality of 'shock therapy'.



Sanity -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 10:59:52 AM)


In that post you were arguing against a statement that you wholly imagined, NG. Your arguments had nothing in common with what I wrote.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.



They may have arms/legs and need food to sustain themselves but they don't think like the nations trying to impose their values and traditions - and that's what really matters. You simply can't force people to think like you - just as you can't force a cat to live by the laws of a lion.

Interesting sig of yours Sanity considering you're talking like a liberal interventionist.

You can't simply slough off the past and expect a wholesale change in behaviour - the evidence is there for you to see (try any revolution you like and previous US ventures such as Russia in 1991).

Progress is organic and steady.

If you seriously believe that you can turn a tribal people into a democratic nation underpinned by Western values then you've been spending too much time listening to the propaganda machine and not enough studying the reality of 'shock therapy'.




slvemike4u -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 11:16:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Actually, he seems to be merely trying cover his ass and stay electable. Remember, Obama's own hand-picked general requested a lot more additional troops than he was given after months of indecisiveness on the matter on Obama's part. The new rules of engagement are causing rapid deterioration of the our soldiers' morale, and the on-again off-again prosecution of our CIA field agents can't be too good for their morale either.

With all things considered, I'm not convinced that Obama really is trying to win this war.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

This should be repeated a few more dozen times.

However righteous the cause, war is always horrible. Just when we start to think that everyone has learned that lesson, someone comes along and ignores it.


On a more partisan point, Obama's speech baffled most, because everyone somehow bought the argument that he was in fact an anti-American Moozlim pacifist.

Trouble is, Obama never got that memo. He is actually turning out to be a cautious centrist hawk, determined to uphold the Bush Admin's National Security State, and to continue the wars.

And he never said otherwise, really.

Interesting link choice Sanity,did you actually read the thread you linked to?I'm speaking of  LPlittleclip post,which as far as I know is the only first hand account that speaks to the morale of an actual serving soldier deployed to Afghanistan.Please read it before you make any more pronouncements concerning what the ROE is doing or not doing to the troops.
To listen to you one would think this is the first time American troops have dealt with limited ROE.....how else is a civilized society supposed to deploy troops to an area where we are not actually at war with the civilian population in its entirety.
Should we just hand out the ammo belts and advise our young men to empty them where they will ?
All of this hand wringing over the ROE is just so much more Obama bashing....the American military has long operated under such guidelines...pretending otherwise is just bullshit!



TheHeretic -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 11:44:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Sanity, there is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, unless you are one of the natives trying to drive out the invaders. 




Don't pull out the "people just like us," Sanity.  So are the Chinese, but how successful do you figure People's Army peacekeepers might be in Idaho? 




Sanity -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 11:48:08 AM)


If they drove out the Taliban?

Brought in food and water and other relief?

Built schools and hospitals?

And were working towards restoring the rightful people of Idaho to power?

I wouldn't even have to think about that, give me a Mao T-Shirt and a plate of plain rice with maybe some dandelion greens and a little bit of rat meat & I'd be a happy camper!

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Sanity, there is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, unless you are one of the natives trying to drive out the invaders. 




Don't pull out the "people just like us," Sanity.  So are the Chinese, but how successful do you figure People's Army peacekeepers might be in Idaho? 





SpinnerofTales -> RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it (12/13/2009 12:48:25 PM)

quote:

If they drove out the Taliban?

Brought in food and water and other relief?

Built schools and hospitals?

And were working towards restoring the rightful people of Idaho to power?

I wouldn't even have to think about that, give me a Mao T-Shirt and a plate of plain rice with maybe some dandelion greens and a little bit of rat meat & I'd be a happy camper!
ORIGINAL: Sanity



Of course, the people we are working with as the "rightful" government is a repressive, corrupt administration that is so inefficient it makes the US government look like Wallmart. And that is just the offical government. Add the warlords who control large areas of the country and the idea of "restoring the rightful people to power" is pretty laughable.

We aren't liberating Afghanistan. We are occupying it. And the people of Afghanistan know it. That's why the Taliban has no problem gaining recruits



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