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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 6:11:07 PM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline 		I do not normally post in 'politics and religion', though they are some of my favorite fodders for conversation, and I may have discovered why.

There are several posts on this thread which can be summed up to asking another poster 'who the fuck are you? I was having an A-B conversation'.

Newsflash, people:
There is a mailbox on the other side for everyone, if you wish to have an A-B conversation. If you post on the board, it is open for responses from all kinds of people.

I wouldn't have thought that needed pointing out.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 8:15:03 PM   
MichiganHeadmast


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

'War is an ugly thing. but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war is far worse.'

J.S. Mill.



Bears repeating.

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 8:21:00 PM   
MichiganHeadmast


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

'War is an ugly thing. but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war is far worse.'

J.S. Mill.



And don't forget:

“World War is the second worst activity of mankind, the worst being acquiescence in slavery.” —William F. Buckley Jr.

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 9:21:12 PM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline 		I have been rather happy, and satisfied with my life, whenever i have been able to acquiese to slavery.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 10:28:08 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It is simply not true that heroism and tragedy are mutually exclusive.
K.


This should be repeated a few more dozen times.

However righteous the cause, war is always horrible. Just when we start to think that everyone has learned that lesson, someone comes along and ignores it.


On a more partisan point, Obama's speech baffled most, because everyone somehow bought the argument that he was in fact an anti-American Moozlim pacifist.

Trouble is, Obama never got that memo. He is actually turning out to be a cautious centrist hawk, determined to uphold the Bush Admin's National Security State, and to continue the wars.

And he never said otherwise, really.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 1:47:33 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: mastrcmmdr


Of course if you actually thought about an issue any deeper than how to make snarky reply you might actually ken what I said, which was not that it "has no ill effects".

To save you the calories of actually having to think and using Obama's own speech:

What would be a human tragedy, WWII or letting Hilter continue? (And you will probably argue that they would both be tragedies. I disagree. When an action is forced in order to prevent a tragedy, any negative consequences resulting from that action are not tragic, they are heroic.


I was replying to wilbeur. Who the fuck are you? Or is this another case of a schizophrenic poster?



Willbeur sometimes forgets what profile he is posting under.

How many screen names do have on this site now Willbeur, four, five?  I've lost track.

The only thing I can't figure out is why you keep doing it.  At first it was amusing seeing you putting up posts agreeing with yourself under different names, but it should be obvious to you by now that everyone recognizes your writing style and, in fact, you don't even try that hard to hide it anymore.

So what's the point?



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 9:10:12 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

He is actually turning out to be a cautious centrist hawk, determined to uphold the Bush Admin's National Security State, and to continue the wars.

And he never said otherwise, really.


At least regarding Afghanistan, yes. He even campaigned on it.

Iraq at least is winding down. Beyond cutting back, we'll be in both places for years--a decade at least.

The gift that keeps on giving. Further, even if they aren't saying it, many leaders want us strongly in the region, period.

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 9:23:43 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Actually, he seems to be merely trying cover his ass and stay electable. Remember, Obama's own hand-picked general requested a lot more additional troops than he was given after months of indecisiveness on the matter on Obama's part. The new rules of engagement are causing rapid deterioration of the our soldiers' morale, and the on-again off-again prosecution of our CIA field agents can't be too good for their morale either.

With all things considered, I'm not convinced that Obama really is trying to win this war.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

This should be repeated a few more dozen times.

However righteous the cause, war is always horrible. Just when we start to think that everyone has learned that lesson, someone comes along and ignores it.


On a more partisan point, Obama's speech baffled most, because everyone somehow bought the argument that he was in fact an anti-American Moozlim pacifist.

Trouble is, Obama never got that memo. He is actually turning out to be a cautious centrist hawk, determined to uphold the Bush Admin's National Security State, and to continue the wars.

And he never said otherwise, really.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 9:49:21 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

With all things considered, I'm not convinced that Obama really is trying to win this war.




Sanity, there is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, unless you are one of the natives trying to drive out the invaders. 

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 9:52:44 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		It's strange how Kipling's stuff about Afghanistan has dated a lot less than any of the first world war poets, isn't it?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 9:57:25 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Not really--large parts of Afghanistan are still essentially in the 4th century.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 10:03:04 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Not really--large parts of Afghanistan are still essentially in the 4th century.



Except for the weapons in the closet, of course...

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 10:09:00 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I think you mean "right down to the weapons in the closet."

More modern weapons, same idea.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 10:15:24 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Sanity, there is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, unless you are one of the natives trying to drive out the invaders. 


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 10:29:20 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.



They may have arms/legs and need food to sustain themselves but they don't think like the nations trying to impose their values and traditions - and that's what really matters. You simply can't force people to think like you - just as you can't force a cat to live by the laws of a lion.

Interesting sig of yours Sanity considering you're talking like a liberal interventionist.

You can't simply slough off the past and expect a wholesale change in behaviour - the evidence is there for you to see (try any revolution you like and previous US ventures such as Russia in 1991).

Progress is organic and steady.

If you seriously believe that you can turn a tribal people into a democratic nation underpinned by Western values then you've been spending too much time listening to the propaganda machine and not enough studying the reality of 'shock therapy'.


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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 10:59:52 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
In that post you were arguing against a statement that you wholly imagined, NG. Your arguments had nothing in common with what I wrote.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.



They may have arms/legs and need food to sustain themselves but they don't think like the nations trying to impose their values and traditions - and that's what really matters. You simply can't force people to think like you - just as you can't force a cat to live by the laws of a lion.

Interesting sig of yours Sanity considering you're talking like a liberal interventionist.

You can't simply slough off the past and expect a wholesale change in behaviour - the evidence is there for you to see (try any revolution you like and previous US ventures such as Russia in 1991).

Progress is organic and steady.

If you seriously believe that you can turn a tribal people into a democratic nation underpinned by Western values then you've been spending too much time listening to the propaganda machine and not enough studying the reality of 'shock therapy'.



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 11:16:40 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Actually, he seems to be merely trying cover his ass and stay electable. Remember, Obama's own hand-picked general requested a lot more additional troops than he was given after months of indecisiveness on the matter on Obama's part. The new rules of engagement are causing rapid deterioration of the our soldiers' morale, and the on-again off-again prosecution of our CIA field agents can't be too good for their morale either.

With all things considered, I'm not convinced that Obama really is trying to win this war.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

This should be repeated a few more dozen times.

However righteous the cause, war is always horrible. Just when we start to think that everyone has learned that lesson, someone comes along and ignores it.


On a more partisan point, Obama's speech baffled most, because everyone somehow bought the argument that he was in fact an anti-American Moozlim pacifist.

Trouble is, Obama never got that memo. He is actually turning out to be a cautious centrist hawk, determined to uphold the Bush Admin's National Security State, and to continue the wars.

And he never said otherwise, really.

Interesting link choice Sanity,did you actually read the thread you linked to?I'm speaking of  LPlittleclip post,which as far as I know is the only first hand account that speaks to the morale of an actual serving soldier deployed to Afghanistan.Please read it before you make any more pronouncements concerning what the ROE is doing or not doing to the troops.
To listen to you one would think this is the first time American troops have dealt with limited ROE.....how else is a civilized society supposed to deploy troops to an area where we are not actually at war with the civilian population in its entirety.
Should we just hand out the ammo belts and advise our young men to empty them where they will ?
All of this hand wringing over the ROE is just so much more Obama bashing....the American military has long operated under such guidelines...pretending otherwise is just bullshit!

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 12/13/2009 11:33:02 AM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 11:44:57 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Sanity, there is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, unless you are one of the natives trying to drive out the invaders. 




Don't pull out the "people just like us," Sanity.  So are the Chinese, but how successful do you figure People's Army peacekeepers might be in Idaho? 



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 11:48:08 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
If they drove out the Taliban?

Brought in food and water and other relief?

Built schools and hospitals?

And were working towards restoring the rightful people of Idaho to power?

I wouldn't even have to think about that, give me a Mao T-Shirt and a plate of plain rice with maybe some dandelion greens and a little bit of rat meat & I'd be a happy camper!

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A relatively stable Afghanistan minus al-Qaeda would serve as a victory very nicely, Rich. And I believe that can be accomplished. They're not animals after all, they are people just like us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Sanity, there is no such thing as "victory" in Afghanistan, unless you are one of the natives trying to drive out the invaders. 




Don't pull out the "people just like us," Sanity.  So are the Chinese, but how successful do you figure People's Army peacekeepers might be in Idaho? 




< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/13/2009 11:53:17 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/13/2009 12:48:25 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

If they drove out the Taliban?

Brought in food and water and other relief?

Built schools and hospitals?

And were working towards restoring the rightful people of Idaho to power?

I wouldn't even have to think about that, give me a Mao T-Shirt and a plate of plain rice with maybe some dandelion greens and a little bit of rat meat & I'd be a happy camper!
ORIGINAL: Sanity



Of course, the people we are working with as the "rightful" government is a repressive, corrupt administration that is so inefficient it makes the US government look like Wallmart. And that is just the offical government. Add the warlords who control large areas of the country and the idea of "restoring the rightful people to power" is pretty laughable.

We aren't liberating Afghanistan. We are occupying it. And the people of Afghanistan know it. That's why the Taliban has no problem gaining recruits

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 40
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