Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (Full Version)

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Brain -> Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 12:14:33 AM)



Please explain the problem with his opinion: I agree with him.


Wars or Jobs: Decide Now

Can you imagine the outcries of national shame from liberal commentators if George W. Bush had accepted a peace prize by advocating for war and announcing his right to launch wars of aggression? What an embarrassment that would have been!

Is Obama a war president? Is the pope Catholic?

I'm against continuing these wars at all. I want the House of Representatives to deny this president the money!

The people who wrote the U.S. Constitution got a lot of things wrong, but they were ahead of us on this one. They knew that we could not have peace if a single individual had the power of war. We must put the power of peace back in the Congress and force the House to use it. They have a final vote next week on a war funding bill, and do you know how they intend to pass it?

They're going to include unemployment insurance in the same bill. When it's not relief for hurricane victims it's education for veterans. Now it's unemployment insurance as the lipstick on this pig of a bill, a bill that creates unemployment in the first place. Investing money in wars creates fewer jobs than cutting taxes, and cutting taxes creates fewer jobs than investing in education, mass transit, infrastructure, construction, and other nonviolent industries. Every dollar for war is a dollar less for jobs.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/48356




Termyn8or -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 5:12:51 AM)

Jobs. Where do I send my vote in ?

You stated the obvious, wars cost. They cost more than money. Peace loving people around the world don't like us. US Citizens traveling abroad use paasports from other countries and learn to act like Canadians. The USD is not accepted in some places. Places where it used to be better than the country's own currency.

Jobs on the other hand stimulate our economy and good jobs are even more effective. Enough jobs balance the market and truly fair wage scales would prevail, thus making the minimum wage a moot point. There were places in this country where you could make double the minimum wage to start - flipping burgers at McD's. Why ? There was a construction boom in the area that ate up most of the labor pool there.

I enjoy a peculiar status in that regard. When I look for a job I am also interviewing the company. I wish for everyone in this country to have that opportunity, but it is not likely to happen anytime soon.

Manufacturing something with a real market also creates a nice solid tax base, which, if not pissed away on war could go a long way to improve the lives of people here.

Unless it was a rhetorical question ......

T



NorthernGent -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 7:06:23 AM)

War generates jobs - as a result of the resources gained which are injected into the domestic economy and from the increased production in the armaments and spin off industries.

Whether or not this is ethical is a separate issue.

Short wars are always preferred as the return far outweighs the outlay; the economic problem with a long/drawn out/protracted war is that the cost of funding it begins to outweigh the resources gained.

The British Empire fought a whole host of wars - I use war in the loosest possible sense as a war must be defined by two armies engaging one another - which helped the empire flourish. The problem came when Britain was engaged in a war that sapped all of her resources and consequently lost the financial advantage that she undoubtedly held over her competitors.

I would imagine the idea behind Iraq and Afghanistan was straight in and straight out - the lessons from the past however (with regard to getting bogged down in a country where you're chasing shadows due to notional objectives) haven't been learned.



rockspider -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 7:13:57 AM)

Well if war creates jobs (and i do believe that is right) what would come out on a war on poverty, disease and under education. That can only be described as a win win situation.



NorthernGent -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 7:19:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider

Well if war creates jobs (and i do believe that is right) what would come out on a war on poverty, disease and under education. That can only be described as a win win situation.



You can't possibly hope to eradicate poverty/disease/a socio-economic under-class though I would agree that the incidence can be reduced. The problem here is that these are long terms initiatives and the electorate wants answers today. It's easy to blame it on the politicians when we all enjoy the fruits of short term measures such as war/stealing other people's resources - the get out of jail free card I suppose.



Musicmystery -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 9:05:15 AM)

quote:

War generates jobs - as a result of the resources gained which are injected into the domestic economy and from the increased production in the armaments and spin off industries.


That's in the old days, when we in fact paid for those wars, instead of ever additional borrowing.

Economically, we're like the garage band running up credit cards for more and more equipment, hoping a record label will sign us for millions, magically erasing all our concerns.



Moonhead -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 9:38:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
I'm against continuing these wars at all. I want the House of Representatives to deny this president the money!

Would that achieve anything? When they tried to deny Bush the money, he just went and borrowed it, which hasn't done you country any favours in the long run.



Silence8 -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 10:24:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I enjoy a peculiar status in that regard. When I look for a job I am also interviewing the company. I wish for everyone in this country to have that opportunity, but it is not likely to happen anytime soon.



That's one of the critical advantages of instituting some kind of social security or welfare base.

If force is removed from the equation, especially looming threats of starvation and homelessness, people could choose what kind of jobs they take, and, more often than not, people would choose jobs they could be proud of, that benefit the world in some way, not just the usual cheap, dirty, and anonymous buck. As you put it, the tables would be balanced and the interview process reciprocal.

I suspect that things like white collar crime, which might make up something like 10-30% of our workforce now, correspond directly with a country's income disparity and lack of a proper welfare base.




Termyn8or -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 12:45:17 PM)

FR

Yes but it would not be right to remove that force with public money.

Also, when war drives the ecomony, that is public money. And it does not create any real profit. Not for the average Joe. The suits get rich and if we win and are lucky, like before a Presidential election, we might get gasoline a bit cheaper. Actually we would anyway if we just stopped fucking with the Arabs. They are getting sick of the power lust. In other words, "friendly" Arab governments do not have the greatest approval ratings among their citizenry. But their elections are rigged like ours. It looks like you have a choice but you really don't. Sounds like exactly the type of shit we are fighting, but really all it is is superiority. They want to rule the world and they almost got the job done. People be damnned.

We should tax the living shit out of imports. Tax the importer and there is no breach of treaty, as it is not a tariff. And that means every part. Like many parts of domestic cars are made offshore, just triple their cost with taxes. They do it to us. Why not do it to them.

There are a few ways of leveling the playing field. One is to reduce the US to near third world status and the suits make bigger money. Another is a tariff to balance things out. Another option would be to take over China and start paying floorsweepers $25 an hour. Take your pick unless you can come up with a more viable option.

T



Kirata -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 1:30:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

They have a final vote next week on a war funding bill, and do you know how they intend to pass it? They're going to include unemployment insurance in the same bill.

This is pretty much standard operating procedure in Congress. And it some respects, it's not a bad way to balance competing interests. Too, it can get a lot of things accomplished in one bill, which is not without its efficiencies. As for Afghanistan, you can consider that a settled issue. The President has decided, and his party controls Congress.

If you're not happy about it, seeya in November. Personally, I'm not either. Without even touching on the economy or whether or not we should be there, I don't agree with the philosophy of deploying combat troops to play cops and nannies in the first place. Their job is to kill nasty people and break their toys.

K.



Politesub53 -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 2:00:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


That's in the old days, when we in fact paid for those wars, instead of ever additional borrowing.



Wars have always been paid for with either borrowed money, or increased taxes. AFAIK the same banking family financed both sides in your civil war, as well as Germany and France in WWII.



Politesub53 -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 2:25:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

We should tax the living shit out of imports. Tax the importer and there is no breach of treaty, as it is not a tariff. And that means every part. Like many parts of domestic cars are made offshore, just triple their cost with taxes. They do it to us. Why not do it to them.



A nice claim Term but i doubt it is real. The USA have a free trade agreement with Canada and other nations in the Americas. They also use the MFN agreement between EU countries, as well as China. MFN is most favoured nation and is a low tariff. Whacking a huge tax on American imports ( Oil ? ) will most likely only result in the same being done on American exports.



slvemike4u -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 2:35:44 PM)

Wow Polite,do ya think they would actually do something as dastardly as that?
Fucking furriners![8|]



Politesub53 -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 2:44:43 PM)

Indeed Mike, how uncivil of people to reply with higher taxes on American goods. The cheek of it.



DarkSteven -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 3:35:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Please explain the problem with his opinion: I agree with him.

Wars or Jobs: Decide Now

Can you imagine the outcries of national shame from liberal commentators if George W. Bush had accepted a peace prize by advocating for war and announcing his right to launch wars of aggression? What an embarrassment that would have been!

Is Obama a war president? Is the pope Catholic?

I'm against continuing these wars at all. I want the House of Representatives to deny this president the money!

The people who wrote the U.S. Constitution got a lot of things wrong, but they were ahead of us on this one. They knew that we could not have peace if a single individual had the power of war. We must put the power of peace back in the Congress and force the House to use it. They have a final vote next week on a war funding bill, and do you know how they intend to pass it?

They're going to include unemployment insurance in the same bill. When it's not relief for hurricane victims it's education for veterans. Now it's unemployment insurance as the lipstick on this pig of a bill, a bill that creates unemployment in the first place. Investing money in wars creates fewer jobs than cutting taxes, and cutting taxes creates fewer jobs than investing in education, mass transit, infrastructure, construction, and other nonviolent industries. Every dollar for war is a dollar less for jobs.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/48356




Wrong on two counts.

1. Saying that wars do not create jobs is ridiculous.  Wars help out employment on two fronts:

They generate economic activity to make the weapons and pay troops (we have more troops than we would in peacetime).

They also keep the soldiers from competing in the civilian labor pool.  When the soldiers return, many will qualify for the GI Bill, keeping them from the labor force longer.

2. The thing that really pisses me off is the idea of "if we didn't spend this pile of money on the war, we could spend it on other things."

There IS no pile of cash.  We're leveraging ourselves for a senseless war that is likely unwinnable.  Saying that it would be better to put ourselves in debt for other things already assumes that deficit ballooning is a given.

Screw that.  Let the government only buy stuff it can afford, like everyone else.



Moonhead -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 4:22:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

We should tax the living shit out of imports. Tax the importer and there is no breach of treaty, as it is not a tariff. And that means every part. Like many parts of domestic cars are made offshore, just triple their cost with taxes. They do it to us. Why not do it to them.



A nice claim Term but i doubt it is real. The USA have a free trade agreement with Canada and other nations in the Americas. They also use the MFN agreement between EU countries, as well as China. MFN is most favoured nation and is a low tariff. Whacking a huge tax on American imports ( Oil ? ) will most likely only result in the same being done on American exports.

That said, don't they tend to ignore the terms they're supposed to abide by in the North American Trade Alliance? As far as I can tell, in practice it just seems to be there to bully the Canadians into selling them timber and hydroelectric power on the cheap.



Brain -> RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 7:18:50 PM)

He needs approval from Congress to borrow money so yes it would achieve everything!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
I'm against continuing these wars at all. I want the House of Representatives to deny this president the money!

Would that achieve anything? When they tried to deny Bush the money, he just went and borrowed it, which hasn't done you country any favours in the long run.




Brain -> S. RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/13/2009 7:30:27 PM)

Nobody said wars don't create jobs, he said they create fewer jobs. And as far as 2. goes fine, if there isn't any money to spend then don't spend it on anything if you don't have it, I' m fine with that no problem.



Termyn8or -> RE: S. RE: Wars or Jobs: Decide Now (12/14/2009 12:07:42 AM)

Hasn't anyone ever played a game of chess and understand the concept of regrouping ? This is when you pulll back in, put your strong pices in a stronghold so to speak and almost start over. Usually you are in the inferior position. That is where we are folks. We are nowhere near the richest nation on the planet, in fact we may be the farthest from it. We are in fucking deep shit here, and these suits have put us there, and they did it with our blessings because we are lazy. We will pay. Get that rhough your head.

We need to suck it up, take stock of what we have and don't have, and realize that we have very little. The wealth to support wars is gone, all the money is borrowed. WE MUST STOP, and we must do it soon. War as a stimulus to the economy is false. It is an illusion. Reality is by having a product that sells. You want to be superior, you don't do it with a credit card, and that's what the US does.

Let me put it this way, some Puertoricans used to live actross the street. Actually they were fairly nice folk, but I can't stand their music. No highs no lows, they might as well buy Bose. Now I could just go over there and blow them alll away, but for a couple of things. For one it is wrong. What's more they put up with my music and never said a word. Now to top that off if I want to go and chew bubble gum and kick ass, and forget to buy bubble gum, there is a price. That comes in one of two ways. Stealth, which doesn't work well unless there are no witnesses, and another is to go make trouble and get my ass thrown in jail and have to buy my way out. I don't have that kind of money these days.

So even if I wanted to, I would not do it. I would do what my Grandparents did when they didn't have the money for something they wanted. Without. One word says it all. We owe more than any ten fucking countries and as beggars we want to be leaders ? No fucking wonder we are seen as bafoons by the civilised world.

I don't agree with people on guns and shit like that, but our actions in the international arena have been shameful, irresponsible, haphazard and pretty much useless. We made no friends to say the least.

Even in this day of tightening credit I could probably put my hands on a hundred grand, quite easily. I could build an army and buy weapons and pretty much take over a town or a small city, maybe even certain states. But that would be the end of my credit, I would not be able to make the payments. The ability to make war would end there unless the spoils were very rich.

So I don't do it. Know why ? BECAUSE I AM NOT STOOOOPID ! You get one motherfucker to contend for the Whitehouse that can at least equal the intelligence of this here tenth grade dropout I will vote for him, or her. Just one. Fuck this system, every one of them is so aloof in their rapture that they have no sense of the commoner, and no common sense.

But because of their wealth they have no need for common sense. Get it now ?

I don't know what else to say.

T



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