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Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 8:42:41 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Love - Like - Lust

Questions have already been asked whether emotions play a role in a 'lifestyle' relationship. Good arguments are made on both sides. What serves individuals to achieve their desires can't be argued on terms like 'good' or 'bad', better or worse. However a question came up in a discussion that pointed to another trait that may be the key to separating the 'psychopathic' sadists highlighted as the 'bad guys' on Law & Order, from the; "I may hurt you, but won't kill you (at least on purpose)" variety. That word is empathy.

I won't make a generalization but speaking for myself and many fellow sadists I've met and hang out with; we are selfish. We want our submissives, slaves, servants, around us all the time. We want them there and ready to placate our every whim and desire, as well as a handy outlet for our sadism. However, there is a point where another emotion is worked into the equation, in service and as an sadistic outlet - empathy.

I'm the first to say that no sadist knows or can process the physical, emotional pain and mentally feel what a masochist feels during play. But you should, in my opinion, at least be able to understand the 'humanity' of your partner and not put them in a position to 'break'; emotionally, mentally, or physically.

This is a season for conflict. Family, friends, children, split family obligations; and only one day to spread yourself among those. Of course a 'Master' should have the ability to dictate where his 'slave' goes on any given day. However will a few hours, or a full day, of empathetic consideration, sacrificing a bit a selfishness, serve more than any other possible action to establish trust?

Should you be a dominant without empathy for your partner?

Should a submissive be worried if their dominant partner seems not to have any empathy for them?

Not love, not like, not experiencing the same sensations; but is empathy, reciprocal empathy at that, the one absolute for a good relationship dynamic?
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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 8:55:43 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Merc, I think my thoughts follow yours very closely on this. I am very selfish at times but have to realize that, in the bigger picture, it isn't always going to be all about me. It just can't be. 

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 8:59:25 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		i would hope everyone would say yes to this Merc, but i have a feeling......

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 9:40:42 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		Without feeling empathy from my partner, I would not be able to get what I look for out of any scene, regardless of which side of the flogger I am on.  If that makes sense.... lol

(looking forward to the 27th!!!)


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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 9:50:46 AM   
Wolf2Bear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

This is a season for conflict. Family, friends, children, split family obligations; and only one day to spread yourself among those. Of course a 'Master' should have the ability to dictate where his 'slave' goes on any given day. However will a few hours, or a full day, of empathetic consideration, sacrificing a bit a selfishness, serve more than any other possible action to establish trust?  - I believe it would.


Should you be a dominant without empathy for your partner? - I believe that one should know when to be empathetic and when not to be that is mutually beneficial to both the dominant and the submissive.

Should a submissive be worried if their dominant partner seems not to have any empathy for them? - In my opinion....yes. Having no empathy for the sub will eventually translate to the sub believing their dominant really doesn't give a damn for them and that can lead to conflict in the relationship.

Not love, not like, not experiencing the same sensations; but is empathy, reciprocal empathy at that, the one absolute for a good relationship dynamic? - I see having a good measure of reciprocal empathy happening is part of the "glue" which helps keep that relationship together. 


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Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 9:52:02 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		-FR-

No, I don't think a dominant needs to have empathy. From the way I understand it, empathy is defined as feeling the same thing another person is feeling even though you're not in their situation - it differs from 'sympathy' in that sympathy is a form of commiseration (making yourself understand their feelings) whereas empathy is genuinely feeling what the other person is feeling as if it were happening to you yourself.

So no. I don't think a dominant should empathetically feel submission or any of the other spectrum of emotions a submissive feels - in fact I think he should do the opposite and remain in his own headspace.

I think what you're describing in your OP would be better described as -awareness combined with compassion- because the dominant needs to 1. be aware of the submissive's feelings and 2. be compassionate enough to respect them as an individual rather than a means to an end.

However you know there's going to be someone popping up saying how their dominant treats them like trash and they love it, so....I'll just leave it at that

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 9:57:52 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		In my usual Vulcanian way, I'm seeing what this issue boils down to at the lowest common denominator.

So, to put it coldly, I'm seeing your use of "empathy" here to mean: an understanding of the mental/physical/emotional thresholds of your sub/slave and intentionally making decisions that appear to appease them in an (indirect?) effort to elicit a pleasing response from them.

On a purely functional level, I think even the more emotionally barren of D-type's would understand that severely overworking their s-type is going to create more problems to fix later and will be less conducive to keeping them in a status to be able to competently serve than maintaining a general upkeep.

I think I'm having a hard time distinguishing contextually between "empathy towards" and "understanding of". For instance, it's not empathy for my car that makes me aware that I'll create engine issues if I don't get an oil change every few thousands miles, it's an understanding of.

What sorts of examples can you present that would offer hypothetical scenarios that might demonstrate empathic actions/decisions?


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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 10:18:10 AM   
Wolf2Bear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

No, I don't think a dominant needs to have empathy. From the way I understand it, empathy is defined as feeling the same thing another person is feeling even though you're not in their situation - it differs from 'sympathy' in that sympathy is a form of commiseration (making yourself understand their feelings) whereas empathy is genuinely feeling what the other person is feeling as if it were happening to you yourself.

So no. I don't think a dominant should empathetically feel submission or any of the other spectrum of emotions a submissive feels - in fact I think he should do the opposite and remain in his own headspace.

I think what you're describing in your OP would be better described as -awareness combined with compassion- because the dominant needs to 1. be aware of the submissive's feelings and 2. be compassionate enough to respect them as an individual rather than a means to an end.

However you know there's going to be someone popping up saying how their dominant treats them like trash and they love it, so....I'll just leave it at that


How I understand what empathy means and entails, it also feeling the emotional state of another-whether it's anger, fear, love, compassion, pain,  etc. I don't see it as strictly feeling the head space of another who identifies as submissive.


_____________________________

~Resident Sadist Approved~

Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 10:30:09 AM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Questions have already been asked whether emotions play a role in a 'lifestyle' relationship


That is entirely up to the individual, there is (as I have mentioned before now) no such thing as a rulebook. Or, indeed, any definition for "the lifestyle". Emotions, if that helps you, do play a role in life, in general.

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 10:59:53 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I wouldn't call it empathy but common sense. If you keep forcing your sub to lose everything of importance to her while you don't fill any of those voids, you will eventually lose the sub.

Decent people want their partners to be happy. Deliberately causing problems between parent and children will not do that, it will however cause them to resent you for so doing. And resentment poisons the relationship eventually destroying it.

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 11:08:28 AM   
breatheasone


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Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I wouldn't call it empathy but common sense. If you keep forcing your sub to lose everything of importance to her while you don't fill any of those voids, you will eventually lose the sub.

Decent people want their partners to be happy. Deliberately causing problems between parent and children will not do that, it will however cause them to resent you for so doing. And resentment poisons the relationship eventually destroying it.

Excellent point.


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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 12:09:31 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		The nit picking of the term aside, I happen to agree with you, Merc.  Somewhere a couple of years back on the Mistress board, there was a topic about ten qualities that a Dominant should possess.  Empathy made My list in My response back then and I still believe it belongs on My list today.

I'm in firm agreement that I will never feel what a masochist or a s-type feels.  I don't process a situation during play the same way that they would.  Yet, I have to have a level of empathy for them during play.  The whole reading of the body language, knowing their limits, etc are kind of out the window if I don't have empathy for their position.  If I don't, why does any of that matter to Me?  Why don't I just do whatever I like to them and not care about the consequences that will result from it?  Sure, it could have a negative impact on Me if we're talking about a M/s or D/s dynamic, but not in a top/bottom sense. 

On the matter of selfishness, I think I look at that as being more interested in the greater good for the whole, rather than My particular wants.  I couldn't especially tell you if this springs more from My being poly or because of the dynamic that exists as it is.  There are a good number of folks floating around these boards that wouldn't find My situation acceptable at all.  I don't really have an answer for that.


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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 2:20:37 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

From the way I understand it, empathy is defined as feeling the same thing another person is feeling even though you're not in their situation -


No - Were that the case I'd be the first to say it wasn't possible let alone recommend it be necessary. There are four definitions given for the word empathy. I had the first one; "the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another" in mind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
What sorts of examples can you present that would offer hypothetical scenarios that might demonstrate empathic actions/decisions?

You have a day off work. Ideally you, as the Dominant, would want to spend it in bed or otherwise occupying the day of you're, also not working, submissive. However it's also the day the submissive's child has a ballet recital. Do your plans change?

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 5:14:28 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Yes and no.

There's a time and a place.

There are times when I want him to have empathy. Other times I really don't care one bit if he does or not.

Just depends on the situation.

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 5:47:20 PM   
masterlink65


Posts: 683
Joined: 11/3/2007
Status: offline 		i think if it is going to last any length of time, there has to be empathy, on both sides really. 

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 5:54:34 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: masterlink65

i think if it is going to last any length of time, there has to be empathy, on both sides really. 

Well said, and to the point!


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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 6:58:12 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
What serves individuals to achieve their desires can't be argued on terms like 'good' or 'bad', better or worse.


So not true...

Better: You got that spankin' new Hitachi wand with a kick-start for Christmas... BZZZZZZ!!!
 
Good: Your Christmas gift is wrapped in a box that fits a Hitachi Wand.
 
Bad: Your Christmas gift is wrapped in a box that fits a Hitachi Wand... but smells funny.

Worse: Your Christmas gift is wrapped in a box that fits a Hitachi Wand... but smells funny... because your daughter found (and used) it before secretly re-wrapping it.




quote:


...you should, in my opinion, at least be able to understand the 'humanity' of your partner and not put them in a position to 'break'...


Eh... nothin' a warm bath and some Hostess Cupcakes can't fix.

quote:


Should you be a dominant without empathy for your partner?

Should a submissive be worried if their dominant partner seems not to have any empathy for them?


No "Shoulds" in any dynamic... just do what works, and keep LOTS of chocolate around!!!

quote:


...is empathy, reciprocal empathy at that, the one absolute for a good relationship dynamic?


Nah... the only absolute is that for some, "pain" (either giving or receiving) is like ICE CREAM... so scart to your heart's content; just keep it down while I'm sleeping, you horny bastards!!!



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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 7:01:32 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
You have a day off work. Ideally you, as the Dominant, would want to spend it in bed or otherwise occupying the day of you're, also not working, submissive. However it's also the day the submissive's child has a ballet recital. Do your plans change?


If you're too tired or sick, you stay and sleep.
You do not demand the child misses her recital, ruining it for the child who has not agreed to submit to you, and ruining the recital for the other dancers who also have not agreed to submit to you.
Demanding the mother stays home, not driving the child is reprehensible.
Demanding she find someone else to take the child, missing an experience that may never be repeated is equally poor on your part.

She was a mother, or a daughter as in the post that sparked this thread, long before you came into the picture and she'll be one long after you depart which if the you in question does these things, won't be long.

Mother trumps slave. If you don't want to deal with someone having to do what's best for their child, then don't get involved with a parent. If you don't want to deal with someone seeing an elderly parent, then only get involved with those who are already orphaned. It's that simple.

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/16/2009 9:39:35 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		I honestly have no idea nor do I care what a "dominant" or a "submissive" ought to do. Those are just labels. For me personally, I need a vibrant emotional bond in order to sustain a long-term relationship. Part & parcel with such bonds goes caring, concern, sympathy, empathy, and in my case, love. I do not see myself as "selfish", merely as "in charge". Carol and I are hopelessly intertwined emotionally in a vibrantly loving bond. It would not be possible for me to be happy while she was not. My commands reflect this. I would have it no other way.

As littlewonder noted, there are times and places for such things. Sometimes Carol doesn't WANT me to care.. notably sexually. That's the easy case. Other times, she very definitely does and I do the hurtful thing anyway. While causing emotional hurt to Carol directly and deeply hurts me, there are times when I do it anyway. That, in my mind, is part of the package when you're in charge. In our relationship, I've been tasked with doing the right thing, not the easy thing and not the comfortable thing.

What other people need or want out of a relationship is, in my mind, entirely up to them. Given the breadth of humanity, I strongly suspect that there are individuals out there who can thrive in a relationship without empathy. To me, that would be cold... soulless... but it's not my relationship in question, it is theirs and only they can say what works or doesn't for them. As I have oft-said, I am officially in favor of smiles and happines. Whatever it is that produces that outcome within any relationship seems good to me.



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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Can we agree on 'empathy'? - 12/17/2009 8:43:08 AM   
persephonee


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Joined: 12/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
What sorts of examples can you present that would offer hypothetical scenarios that might demonstrate empathic actions/decisions?

You have a day off work. Ideally you, as the Dominant, would want to spend it in bed or otherwise occupying the day of you're, also not working, submissive. However it's also the day the submissive's child has a ballet recital. Do your plans change?


Master and i were just talking about this exact subject last night.

His "in a perfect world" plans change all the time in our day to day life. He occasionally finds this fact an annoyance, like anyone would....but i am blessed to never see that frustration as he understands that in order to get his ideal wants met on any given day, he would have had to choose a slave without a 7 yr old. Or one who doesnt have all sorts of arthritis issues, or someone skinnier, or less sexually driven...or yannow, whatever.

He got himself into this mess(owning me, plus whatever baggage i carry)....and whining about how unfair it is, aint doin anybody any good.

He feels, thankfully, that that sort of empathy is necessary to maintain any dynamic.

my opinion...under the dynamic of any relationship, is the relationship...and in every relationship there is compromise. So, empathy, flexibility, selfless acts, all create and promote health in it. From both sides.

In the above situation, Master's plans would change....he might spend the afternoon by himself, and upon his slave's return....torture her mercilessly for daring to leave his side when he clearly was in need of some service....

Conversely, he takes the monster to scouts meetings once a week, regardless of what his day was like prior, and despite the fact that he may not "want" to do it.

Part of what compels me to serve him is his drive to honor commitments he has made. In order to do any of the things he does it requires empathy as well as all the other positive qualities he has.

Happy Holidays to You and beth!



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And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

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