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A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 7:29:38 PM   
DarkSteven


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willbeurdaddy posted something in another thread about the necessity of a "free" press.  That got me to thinking...

Murdoch, the media mogul, has made some public pronouncements about search engines ripping off media.  Basically, he's complaining that the content of a news source costs to produce, and that it shouldn't be given away for free.  I reject his argument as it stands - Google has made a fortune figuring out how to monetize things that were previously free.

My issue is that I consider the free flow of information to be vital to the freedoms we enjoy in the USA.  An informed populace is necessary to a country in which the people have control over their own destinies to a degree.  I'm concerned that restricting access to information will disadvantage blocks of people.

Your thoughts?


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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 7:38:30 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

willbeurdaddy posted something in another thread about the necessity of a "free" press.  That got me to thinking...

Murdoch, the media mogul, has made some public pronouncements about search engines ripping off media.  Basically, he's complaining that the content of a news source costs to produce, and that it shouldn't be given away for free.  I reject his argument as it stands - Google has made a fortune figuring out how to monetize things that were previously free.

My issue is that I consider the free flow of information to be vital to the freedoms we enjoy in the USA.  An informed populace is necessary to a country in which the people have control over their own destinies to a degree.  I'm concerned that restricting access to information will disadvantage blocks of people.

Your thoughts?



It's an issue that has no easy answers. Do people have the right to their intellectual property? Is the right to know so absolute that charging money for news is against the free press? Is what Rupert Murdoch puts out really worth the word "news"?

I would have to say that it becomes a matter of choice. Yes, Rupert Murdoch has the right to give his news away. He also has the right to sell his news. Throughout time the selling of news has been a respected vocation. Even the town crier was paid. The argument can be made that his news is a product of investment (i.e. paying reporters, dissemination apparatus, etc) and the income that he derives from this allows him to continue to produce the news.

I think in this case, we have to accept that the term "free" in free press means uncensored, not without cost.


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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 8:04:21 PM   
TheHeretic


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WTF, Spinner?  On another thread you are saying we agree about the importance of a free press, and here you are, spewing that failed talking point about whether or not Fox is considered part of it.

Would you perhaps care to explain this complete contradiction of yourself, or would you prefer to just admit that your values are completely conditional on partisan hackery?

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 8:18:08 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

WTF, Spinner?  On another thread you are saying we agree about the importance of a free press, and here you are, spewing that failed talking point about whether or not Fox is considered part of it.

Would you perhaps care to explain this complete contradiction of yourself, or would you prefer to just admit that your values are completely conditional on partisan hackery?


There is no contradiction whatsoever, Heretic. I consider Murdoch produce biased, unreliable and pretty worthless news. I am entitled to that opinion and I will defend my right to both take it and communicate it. That in no way means that I consider that Mr. Murdoch has any less right to produce, distribute and even profit from his version of news than do those I consider more worthwhile.

The old principle of "I may disagree with everything you say but I will defend to my death your right to say it." comes to mind.

Please show me the contradiction in that stance.


< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 12/18/2009 8:20:10 PM >

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 8:18:39 PM   
Musicmystery


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Steven,

Where do you stand on copyright law? Are writers entitled to the rights to their work, or is the act of creation automatically public domain? And shouldn't the writers get to decide whether their work is offered this way?

If there's more money to be made on a Google model, they'll sell it that way. If the money is really going to Google and its advertisers, why should they write it?

The problem, similar to the problems musicians face, is that work is easily duplicated and distributed. If suddenly whatever work engineers do is readily replicated, should that then be public domain? Should all work be publicly owned?

Should all the work you do during the week be free, with you getting paid if people happen to click on an ad near it?

Just a few thoughts.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/18/2009 8:19:42 PM >

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 8:22:21 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Steven,

Where do you stand on copyright law? Are writers entitled to the rights to their work, or is the act of creation automatically public domain? And shouldn't the writers get to decide whether their work is offered this way?

If there's more money to be made on a Google model, they'll sell it that way. If the money is really going to Google and its advertisers, why should they write it?

The problem, similar to the problems musicians face, is that work is easily duplicated and distributed. If suddenly whatever work engineers do is readily replicated, should that then be public domain? Should all work be publicly owned?

Should all the work you do during the week be free, with you getting paid if people happen to click on an ad near it?

Just a few thoughts.



Oh no, youve opened the anti-capitalist's pandoras box! Profits are bad, and intellectually property laws enable profits. Eliminate copyrights and patents and all will be good and just, and nobody will become wealthy, and nobody will be poor, and kittens will never be run over by cars.

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 8:28:40 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Oh no, youve opened the anti-capitalist's pandoras box! Profits are bad, and intellectually property laws enable profits. Eliminate copyrights and patents and all will be good and just, and nobody will become wealthy, and nobody will be poor, and kittens will never be run over by cars.
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



And we know that's a foolish world view. It's every bit as foolish as, "profits are everything. There should be no other consideration. If we let pure capitalism reign we will have a just, healthy society where market forces take care of every problem."

Don't you hate uni-dimensional thinkers?


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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 8:29:28 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

There is no contradiction whatsoever, Heretic.



Bullshit, Spinner.  You'll not dance away from this.  Now you are of course free to get your information from wherever you like among the many choices our free press provides, but under no circumstances (this is where I referred to loading the guns on Popeye's thread) do you get to decide what is and isn't press.

That you are trying to dance confirms my suspicion.  You are without values, except the partisan ones you deplore when it becomes inconvenient for you.

You took a potshot, and shot yourself in the face.  Pathetic.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 8:56:21 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

There is no contradiction whatsoever, Heretic.



Bullshit, Spinner.  You'll not dance away from this.  Now you are of course free to get your information from wherever you like among the many choices our free press provides, but under no circumstances (this is where I referred to loading the guns on Popeye's thread) do you get to decide what is and isn't press.

That you are trying to dance confirms my suspicion.  You are without values, except the partisan ones you deplore when it becomes inconvenient for you.

You took a potshot, and shot yourself in the face.  Pathetic.


Once again, I do not see why my belief in someone's right to do something dictates that I approve of their doing it. Of course I get to decide what is and isn't worthwhile press....for myself. I do not and never claimed to have the right to decide for anyone else. Hence, my support of Mr. Murdoch's right to present the press he sees fit.

Yes. I took a shot at Mr. Murdoch, letting it be known what I think of his news. I stand by that. I personally think the man puts out stuff that stands with Mad magazine for journalistic worth. That is my right of free speech and I guard that as jealously as I would guard his.

That you can't see this and want to twist, insult and otherwise act in a manner I find, to use your word, pathetic is my opinion. I have no interest, however, in keeping you from being able to say it.

So keep spouting bullshit about the world in general and me in particular. I support your right to do both.


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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 9:13:52 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Oh no, youve opened the anti-capitalist's pandoras box! Profits are bad, and intellectually property laws enable profits. Eliminate copyrights and patents and all will be good and just, and nobody will become wealthy, and nobody will be poor, and kittens will never be run over by cars.
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



And we know that's a foolish world view. It's every bit as foolish as, "profits are everything. There should be no other consideration. If we let pure capitalism reign we will have a just, healthy society where market forces take care of every problem."

Don't you hate uni-dimensional thinkers?




I don't know any on the conservative side, but I'm sure I would hold them in as much contempt as I do uni-dimensional liberals.

Hint: Don't act like a graduate of the RML school of strawmen.

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 9:18:09 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

I don't know any on the conservative side, but I'm sure I would hold them in as much contempt as I do uni-dimensional liberals.

Hint: Don't act like a graduate of the RML school of strawmen.
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Oh no, youve opened the anti-capitalist's pandoras box! Profits are bad, and intellectually property laws enable profits. Eliminate copyrights and patents and all will be good and just, and nobody will become wealthy, and nobody will be poor, and kittens will never be run over by cars.
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



And we know that's a foolish world view. It's every bit as foolish as, "profits are everything. There should be no other consideration. If we let pure capitalism reign we will have a just, healthy society where market forces take care of every problem."

Don't you hate uni-dimensional thinkers?




I don't know any on the conservative side, but I'm sure I would hold them in as much contempt as I do uni-dimensional liberals.

Hint: Don't act like a graduate of the RML school of strawmen.


I happen to think the idea that progressives thing profit is evil, that we should do away with capitalism entirely and that we want everyone given exactly the same amount of wealth to be a strawman. I just don't like throwing the term around, just as I didn't much care for the Alainsky shouts so popular a few months ago.



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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 9:36:18 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Steven,

Where do you stand on copyright law? Are writers entitled to the rights to their work, or is the act of creation automatically public domain? And shouldn't the writers get to decide whether their work is offered this way?

If there's more money to be made on a Google model, they'll sell it that way. If the money is really going to Google and its advertisers, why should they write it?

The problem, similar to the problems musicians face, is that work is easily duplicated and distributed. If suddenly whatever work engineers do is readily replicated, should that then be public domain? Should all work be publicly owned?

Should all the work you do during the week be free, with you getting paid if people happen to click on an ad near it?

Just a few thoughts.



MM, the Internet has been around for over fifteen years.  During that tine, print media has steadily lost ground while online news has gained in popularity.

The print media has spent all that time sitting on its thumbs.  Craigslist has prospered by only offering the classifieds online.  Google has fused advertising with search and prospered.  There are ways to prosper in new media, none of which print media has investigated.

I do have to say that I'm grateful that Murdoch hasn't asked for a handout from Uncle Sam, but I still don't like his idea of pay-for-info.

To answer your question directly, I went into a field that is NOT supported by advertising.  It's got its own challenges, specifically that engineering is being offshored, and I'm not sure how to deal with that except to be prepared to change jobs at the drop of a hat.




_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: A non-free press. - 12/18/2009 10:47:14 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales


I happen to think the idea that progressives thing profit is evil, that we should do away with capitalism entirely and that we want everyone given exactly the same amount of wealth to be a strawman. I just don't like throwing the term around, just as I didn't much care for the Alainsky shouts so popular a few months ago.





Well, we can only take our cue from the leader of the progressives, and there is no question that either Obama thinks that profit and capitalism are evil or he is so fucking stupid that he doesnt realize that every speech he makes on the economy screams out that message. And since I dont think he's stupid, that only leaves the former.

I also find the term "progressive" a laughable attempt by liberals to hide what they are. Liberal economic policies are anything but progressive..they are regressive to the point where buggy whip manufacturing could become profitable if they have their way.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/18/2009 10:48:56 PM >

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/19/2009 7:18:54 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Steven,

Where do you stand on copyright law? Are writers entitled to the rights to their work, or is the act of creation automatically public domain? And shouldn't the writers get to decide whether their work is offered this way?

If there's more money to be made on a Google model, they'll sell it that way. If the money is really going to Google and its advertisers, why should they write it?

The problem, similar to the problems musicians face, is that work is easily duplicated and distributed. If suddenly whatever work engineers do is readily replicated, should that then be public domain? Should all work be publicly owned?

Should all the work you do during the week be free, with you getting paid if people happen to click on an ad near it?

Just a few thoughts.



MM, the Internet has been around for over fifteen years.  During that tine, print media has steadily lost ground while online news has gained in popularity.

The print media has spent all that time sitting on its thumbs.  Craigslist has prospered by only offering the classifieds online.  Google has fused advertising with search and prospered.  There are ways to prosper in new media, none of which print media has investigated.

I do have to say that I'm grateful that Murdoch hasn't asked for a handout from Uncle Sam, but I still don't like his idea of pay-for-info.

To answer your question directly, I went into a field that is NOT supported by advertising.  It's got its own challenges, specifically that engineering is being offshored, and I'm not sure how to deal with that except to be prepared to change jobs at the drop of a hat.



Thanks, Steven.

Writing and music are both far, far different than when I started, too. So yes, I had to learn to be a businessman.

Print indeed has been dragging its feet. Interesting dilemma now, though. I used to buy the NY Times on Sundays at least, because I like papers/books in my hand better than online. As the price climbed, though, I stopped. Thing is--the Times online is a better product, updated quickly, interactive, searchable. For free.

For a while they were promoting Times Select, for a fee. I had a free subscription one year through the college. What's select about it? Nothing there impressive. Now, if it had been something kick ass--seriously in depth features, or an excellent literary magazine, something....that would be different. Besides, it was easy to hack into for free via search engines.

The one advantage I do see is targeted advertising. I'm uncomfortable with the invasion of privacy, but ads geared to exactly my historical interests makes sense. When Amazon recommends a book, I'm sometimes actually interested. That's progress.

But on the other hand, I (and several other musicians) stopped making albums in the 80s. I was doing fine, but breaking even on the albums, as the distributors switched their focus from marking product to marketing catalog ad space to artists. I wasn't a starry eyed kid waiting for some elusive big break. I recognized I was working for no gain, and even though I had three albums with international sales, I switched my efforts elsewhere (I even worked for the distributors for a few years). Today, I often hear people complain that music today is commercial and predictable, that we don't have the creative innovations we used to have. My response is, "Duh. Of course."

People can't both value something and refuse to pay for it. I'm odd among all my acquaintances in that I don't burn CDs for other people. If I want to share, I'll buy another copy. Same with books.

But as for whatever dies in the marketplace, we just didn't want it as much as we said we did. Or didn't think about it enough.

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/19/2009 7:21:40 AM >

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/19/2009 9:15:31 AM   
Termyn8or


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FR

For one I am ignoring the bickering.

But hold on here, just what do you think finances news now ? Advertising of course. There has already been some discussion of just how to get the revenue to pay reporters and staff in the internet age. Several very relevant points emerge. First of all ad revenue for print and radio/TV media is all from ads, unless it is cable or something. There has also been much discussion about the undue influence of the "customer" on the content. Since the influence is already there, just let the same people pay for it I say. Put their ads on the websites.

Do you think those ads will disappear with the advent of some sort of revenue sharing on the part of hosters, domain registries and ISPs ? Hell no, there would still be ads and the media would be double dipping. Wanna know why I won't have cable ? Years ago I had an illegal cable box. As I tuned through the channels in the middle of the night what did I find ? Infomercials ! Fuck this.

In business I call that double dipping. A decent analogy would be getting paid to remove something saleable. For example a contractor will charge to remove the old aluminum siding from your house of course, but then take said aluminum to the scrapyard and make even more. Nice work if you can get it eh ?

We put up with ads all over the place, the net included. Remember the hoax about the post office attempting to put a tax on every email because it hurt their revenue ? Why was that so highly believable ? Because the world is that fucked up that's why.

Every day the TV news gives the website. Why do they want the traffic if they are losing money ? If they wanted to play hardball they could just close down the website until someone coughs up with some money. And believe me if it cost them any significant amount of money they would not do it, save maybe to promote their primary product which is TV news. In that case it is just part of their own advertising budget.

Which is it ? I'll tell you now. It is whatever it takes to make the most money.

T

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/19/2009 9:24:24 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

People can't both value something and refuse to pay for it. I'm odd among all my acquaintances in that I don't burn CDs for other people. If I want to share, I'll buy another copy. Same with books.



Tim


A mini-hijack but its still property rights related.

The lack of integrity that now permeates society (compared to but has its roots in those idealistic 60s/70s) is appalling. With occasional exceptions it takes a waitress to tip other waitresses well, it takes the creative to respect the value of others' creativity, it takes being a programmer to not pirate software. Anarcho-capitalists argue against copyrights saying that you can't inhibit someones "thoughts", and once something is published and read/listened to it becomes part of the readers/listeners "thoughts". To me that is hideous rationalization of theft, with or without copyright laws.

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/19/2009 9:39:18 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

An informed populace is necessary to a country in which the people have control over their own destinies to a degree. 



The press will only inform you of that which they and associates want you to know.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/19/2009 9:44:14 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

An informed populace is necessary to a country in which the people have control over their own destinies to a degree. 



The press will only inform you of that which they and associates want you to know.


But we are fortunate to live in an era where the competition of ideas is robust, and what one group of press doesnt want you to know the other does. Its all out there, its just up to you to sort it out.

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/19/2009 9:59:28 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

An informed populace is necessary to a country in which the people have control over their own destinies to a degree. 



The press will only inform you of that which they and associates want you to know.


But we are fortunate to live in an era where the competition of ideas is robust, and what one group of press doesnt want you to know the other does. Its all out there, its just up to you to sort it out.



What a load of old bollocks. In any walk of life people tell you what they want you to know.

Competition of ideas is robust? Aye.....can you imagine a communist movement gaining ground in the US? You'd sharp see how robust this freedom of ideas is.......you're as free as a bird providing you play within the rules set for you.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: A non-free press. - 12/19/2009 10:29:39 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Competition of ideas is robust? Aye.....can you imagine a communist movement gaining ground in the US? You'd sharp see how robust this freedom of ideas is.......you're as free as a bird providing you play within the rules set for you.


Imagine it? Im witnessing it.

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