RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (Full Version)

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AnimusRex -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 12:21:38 PM)

Given that Afghanistan has almost no strategic value to the US, and even less to the security of Canada, if I were a Canadian father I would be fucking outraged that my son's life was being risked for no other reason than American politics demanded it.




vincentML -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 12:45:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3


I think I’m with the majority of people in that we deserve to be told more details by our governments of this mission or they can’t expect continued public support. The aim of keeping Al-Qaida away when there is little evidence they are there or will return is rather vague. Pakistan seems to be more of a hotspot for violence and we should help support the Pakistani government with their efforts rather than wading in blindly.



Looking back in history the cause and beginning of wars and escalations always seems to be a mystery. 1914 was a major surprise to the Western Empires. World economies festered in depression to 1939 and 1941 and surprise, a war! I know, I know, we had to stop Hitler and protect Poland and Russia. How did that work out? With Russia dominating Eastern Europe. What were the historical roots of our conflict with Japan? They were our ally until the early thirties. I don't know the roots of the Korean War. Vietnam? Please don't get me started about the Gulf of Tonkin faux incident. It tires me to go on. The makings of a good book here. Why wars began.

The Taliban did not attack us. The attackers in 2001 were Saudi students based in Hamberg. Was the planning done in Afghanistan? Maybe it was done in Pakistan. Who can be sure? Bush went after Bin Laden and failed to catch him. That was eight years ago. Hello. Mission failed. Time to come home.

Obama did not have the balls to get out when the getting out was good. Now he is in an indetermnant war with an indeterminent objective and an indeterminient time schedule with the potential to escalate further because it depends on the conditions on the ground. I don't know what that means either. And for what goal? Al Qaeda is a stateless organization. Oh hell, no need to type out the whole argument against. It is well known. Pissed!




vincentML -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 12:46:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Given that Afghanistan has almost no strategic value to the US, and even less to the security of Canada, if I were a Canadian father I would be fucking outraged that my son's life was being risked for no other reason than American politics demanded it.



Fucking exactly.




rulemylife -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 12:46:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I think you are quite mistaken if you mean the far left in the US. There is no support for the war there. If you search you will find, I think, that the Obama WH pushed the far left aside on this one.


I don't have to search because I consider myself on the left, possibly even the far left, and I supported this from the start.

We seem to be having a problem with short-term memory in this country and the world in general lately.

September 11th has become the distant past just eight short years later.




vincentML -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 12:48:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I think you are quite mistaken if you mean the far left in the US. There is no support for the war there. If you search you will find, I think, that the Obama WH pushed the far left aside on this one.


I don't have to search because I consider myself on the left, possibly even the far left, and I supported this from the start.

We seem to be having a problem with short-term memory in this country and the world in general lately.

September 11th has become the distant past just eight short years later.



It is a pointless war now.




vincentML -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 12:50:12 PM)

We have no grievence with the Taliban.




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 12:58:18 PM)

FR

I think people touched upon this issue of honour or setting an example. i.e. if we leave now it demonstrates we can't win in similar future situations. It means we are like gamblers hoping the situation will get better and we can leave quickly claiming success. What we should realise is that the other side will be claiming success whatever.

I find it pointless to be there just to set an example if that is the point of it, like I said I don't know because I'm not well enough informed and in that respect the government has to do a better job and I may see the point.




rulemylife -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 12:59:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It is a pointless war now.


Yes I see your point.

We only have the Taliban, who harbored and supported those who killed 3,000+ innocent civilians, now in control of the majority of Afghanistan again.

But hey, no worries, I'm sure they've learned their lesson and won't try anything like that again.









cuckoldmepls -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 1:02:54 PM)

Geeze, now I've heard it all. Perhaps you need to rewatch some videotape of the twin towers coming down again. These people want to destroy America, our freedom, and our economy. The twin towers attack is just a small sample of what they can do. I can name two things they can do right off the top of my head that would absolutely destroy our economy, but I won't give them any ideas. And you want to leave them alone?

http://babelishere.webs.com

Whether you want to admit it or not, there will always be thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people who want to destroy us and claim the world for Islam. Now if other countries will do their part, then we can avoid having to intervene in their territory. There should be no place on earth that they can hide. If they refuse to take on radical Islamic extremists, then we have no choice but to do it ourselves.

This is the defining moment of the 21st Century. If we surrender, they will claim the world for Islam, and you will see a nightmare unleashed on this planet. Don't forget, these people are willing to cut your head off if you believe in anything other than Islam.




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 1:10:10 PM)

We could have easily found all of the Taliban by now but the reality is they only appear as the Taliban when it is convenient for them. The rest of the time they have their day job.

If it is all about the number of civilian deaths then we are easily on a par. Easily.




LadyPact -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 1:12:01 PM)

Good Afternoon Arpig,

As you know, I'm no great political mind.  I don't particularly have a leg to stand on to argue such things about is this a winnable war, how the strategy to do so should be planned, or any other such thing. 

You did ask one question as part of your query that I do feel I can answer legitimately.  That being, are the 3,000 soldiers your country has sent having any point to being there?

For My answer, I have to tell you that I rely directly on information that I receive from one source.  I'll grant you that it may give Me a view that is slanted.  Still, I have every reason to believe that source.  It has remained consistent for several months.

Each day, when I speak with clip, I hear about shortages.  Truthfully, this has become one of the hardest aspects of the time he has spent in his current deployment.  There is a serious lack of supplies and personnel.  With what they are attempting to accomplish there, yes, 3,000 people less would make a vast difference. 

It's not that I think Canada should sacrifice her sons.  I feel just as much for what they have to endure as I do those who come from My country instead of yours.  It's My sincere wish that they would all be home.  Such decisions aren't Mine to make. 

That 3,000 may not sound that significant when talking just about the numbers.  I can promise you that their presence there hasn't been pointless.


Regards In Kink,


Lady Pact




vincentML -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 3:13:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I think you are quite mistaken if you mean the far left in the US. There is no support for the war there. If you search you will find, I think, that the Obama WH pushed the far left aside on this one.


I don't have to search because I consider myself on the left, possibly even the far left, and I supported this from the start.

We seem to be having a problem with short-term memory in this country and the world in general lately.

September 11th has become the distant past just eight short years later.



MoveOn.org surveyed their membership right after Obama's speach. The results: 56.2% opposed the war in Afghanistan, 27.7% unsure, 16.1% favored the war. I think that's a pretty good indicator as you can get for sentiment on the far left. Seems you are among the 16%

Vincent




vincentML -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 3:26:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It is a pointless war now.


Yes I see your point.

We only have the Taliban, who harbored and supported those who killed 3,000+ innocent civilians, now in control of the majority of Afghanistan again.

But hey, no worries, I'm sure they've learned their lesson and won't try anything like that again.



Again, al Qaeda is a stateless organization. They were the perpetrators, not Iraq and not the Taliban. Recall we were sold the war on Iraq in part because they had a hand in 9/11 in addition to the imminent threat of their WMD? Why do you keep faith with the judgments of our government when it comes to war? Our initial goal was to get Bin Laden and scatter Al Q. Totally unsuccessful getting the big guy; partly successful disrupting the organization.

Now the mission has become to stand up the Afghan army to empower a corrupt narco-government. And there is talk about protecting Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Where does our involvement end? Looks like mission creep big time.

Vincent




Brain -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 3:46:50 PM)


By the time Canada gets out of Afghanistan Canada will have spent $20 billion and I don't think that's doing it on the cheap. I think Vietnam turned out well after the Americans left and I think similar results will occur if the United States leaves Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention all the money that will be saved.

Canada should leave Afghanistan as well in order to save money and because staying there won't accomplish much for the $$$ - little value for money spent. It's up to the Iraqi and Afghan people to solve their own problems. Both countries are drowning in corruption and Canada and America have their own problems.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I agree that 3000 troops is handy, but really it isn't enough, if we are going to fight a war we shouldn't be doing it on the cheap. One of the main reasons Germany lost WW2 was its policy of Gund & Butter. If we are going to fight them, then lets fight them, with all we have. If we're just going to dick around with symbolic contributions then we are wasting lives for PR. At the end of WW2 Canada had the 3rd largest navy on the planet and the 5th largest army...all with a very small population. I think that if we are going to go to war, we owe it to our troops to not fuck around. The US is adding troops, we should as well, as I said if I were running the show I would triple our force. Hell if logistics is an issue well I am sure the US & UK would be more than happy to help if we were offering more than an understrength brigade. Then again if our government followed my idea of how to spend our military budget, the US would be bending over backwards to have even 3000 of our guys there....ah but I ain't likely to ever be in charge so we just have to make do with the present cowards- They haven't the balls to fight and they haven't the balls to pull out.






vincentML -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 4:16:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

Geeze, now I've heard it all. Perhaps you need to rewatch some videotape of the twin towers coming down again. These people want to destroy America, our freedom, and our economy. The twin towers attack is just a small sample of what they can do. I can name two things they can do right off the top of my head that would absolutely destroy our economy, but I won't give them any ideas. And you want to leave them alone?

http://babelishere.webs.com


This is the defining moment of the 21st Century. If we surrender, they will claim the world for Islam, and you will see a nightmare unleashed on this planet. Don't forget, these people are willing to cut your head off if you believe in anything other than Islam.



Wow! You are way over the top. It is emotion like yours that always leads to wider wars. The coalition that fought in Iraq has already suffered 4689 fatalities. More than were killed on 9/11. We have 932 fatalities in Afghanistan. Total lost young men and women 5621. How many are you willing to sacrifice?

We are always told each war is a defining moment for our national security interests. Why is it that the English speaking nations are the only ones with major troop deployments in the Middle East and South Asia? You really believe this is a NATO operation? I know there are some German and Italian, etc. But we have been sending American forces into other nations since the War with Mexico in 1845. Maybe it is time we stopped trying to be the biggest bully on the block. Our DOD budget for the coming fiscal year is beyond six hundred billion dollars. We spend more on Defense than all of Europe combined. Why is that?

We are undertaking a major land war in Asia again. Why is it we are always at war? Why do we sacrifice so many of our boys and girls on the word of Generals and Politicians when they have been proven to be so wrong in the past?

You write as if you believe this is Armageddon between the powers of Good and Evil. That's bullshit. Let the muslims/Asians/whatever fight their own battles. We do not need to be there despite your emotional wail about 9/11.

quote:

Whether you want to admit it or not, there will always be thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people who want to destroy us and claim the world for Islam. Now if other countries will do their part, then we can avoid having to intervene in their territory. There should be no place on earth that they can hide. If they refuse to take on radical Islamic extremists, then we have no choice but to do it ourselves.


There is always an enemy out there who wants to destroy us. You think China, Russa, India, Brazil, etc have no stake in preventing the world being conquered by Islam? Do they seem worried? We have had that paranoia throughout our history. I wonder why that is. So you want us to make an example of Afghanistan. Which will it be next? Pakistan, Somalia, maybe Yemen? And what about Iran? Should we attack them also? How about if we get the Westerners to attack everybody? Are you prepared to reinstitute the Selective Service draft?

We were attacked by an asymmetrical force of guerrilla fighters. We are responding with a massive force. Seems the wrong tactic. Nobody wants to admit the Generals and Politicians could be wrong. I am not here to persuade you. Your mind is obviously set as is mine. So, I will just say it as quietly as I can. It is a pointless war to seek revenge eight years late or to think we can civilize and democratize Afghanistan. Like most wars the objectives are naive and we are sold a bunch of propaganda.

Vincent





mcbride -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 7:02:14 PM)

Nice to see Kipling quoted. Even a legendary imperialistic like him could see the futility of Afghanistan.  Britain paid the price.  The Russians evidently failed to read Kipling, and sped up the destruction of their failing economy.

That said, the mission in Afghanistan was succeeding, and had won the gratitude of the local population in relieving them of an extremist government. It was a local fight, and the schools and tractors of part two might have worked. We'll never know. Alas, that's when Bush and Cheney used 9-11 as a not very convincing pretext to invade Iraq. That gave militants the opportunity to re-cast the whole thing as an invasion of islamic countries, which they exploited gleefully. Goodbye, mission.

As for NATO, Canada stepped up and took a combat role when several larger NATO allies would not. It's time for those allies to take over and shoulder their obligations, for as long as NATO sees the Afghanistan mission as worthwhile.

Vincent made an awfully good point: al Qaeda is a stateless organization, and every time some "well-meaning" cluster bomb or M-16 round kills someone's children, wife, or grandmother, al Qaeda gets to move a bit closer to their next 9-11.

And that's right, Spinner. We've found that 3000 has been enough to turn back at least three invasions.




DarkSteven -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 7:09:13 PM)

To be honest, I don't think we've even defined what a victory or a loss would look like.

If I went in to my manager at work and asked to have a project, he would ask me what the purpose was - how I would know when I had finished the job.  If I couldn't answer that, I'd get chewed, and rightly.

Bush invaded Afghanistan with no clue what he hoped to achieve by so doing.  Obama has not defined an end point there either.  If Congress had any balls, they would demand a realistic outcome and a plan to get there or halt all war funding until it's provided.




mcbride -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 9:47:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

To be honest, I don't think we've even defined what a victory or a loss would look like.

If I went in to my manager at work and asked to have a project, he would ask me what the purpose was - how I would know when I had finished the job.  If I couldn't answer that, I'd get chewed, and rightly.

Bush invaded Afghanistan with no clue what he hoped to achieve by so doing.  Obama has not defined an end point there either.  If Congress had any balls, they would demand a realistic outcome and a plan to get there or halt all war funding until it's provided.


Aye, there's the rub, as some fella said.

You'd think someone would have looked at Vietnam, and jotted down something like "No articulated goal, no exit strategy=trouble and caskets".

Honestly, that's the part I've never understood.




rulemylife -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/20/2009 9:56:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

MoveOn.org surveyed their membership right after Obama's speach. The results: 56.2% opposed the war in Afghanistan, 27.7% unsure, 16.1% favored the war. I think that's a pretty good indicator as you can get for sentiment on the far left. Seems you are among the 16%

Vincent


I would be curious if they had surveyed their membership on 9/12/2001 what those results might have been.




vincentML -> RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? (12/21/2009 7:28:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

MoveOn.org surveyed their membership right after Obama's speach. The results: 56.2% opposed the war in Afghanistan, 27.7% unsure, 16.1% favored the war. I think that's a pretty good indicator as you can get for sentiment on the far left. Seems you are among the 16%

Vincent


I would be curious if they had surveyed their membership on 9/12/2001 what those results might have been.



No need to be curious. In 9/12 we were mostly united in our need for revenge. But that's the point isn't it? We are no longer in 9/12. We have the so-called mastermind and we are about to bring him to Court. How much vengence do you want and what price are you willing to pay to get it? How many more young lives are we to spend? And I doubt you will gain a deterence against a stateless band of thugs by attacking one country. Bin Laden is possibly in the tribal regions of Pakistan. Should we attack Pakistan? Or if he escapes to Yemen should we mass our troops there? We got rocked. No doubt about it. Dramatically. When do you cut your loses, regroup your resources, and strengthen your defenses? Doesn't it tell you something about our home defense when uninvited guests can crash a WH party and have their pic taken with O?

Vincent




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