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Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 6:24:26 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I was going through Brain's link of Fox blunders, and came across the one about making light of the Canadian military and I had a thought....is there really any point in Canada having troops in Afghanistan? Granted we are (as far as I can find easily online) the 3rd largest component, but we only have 3000 troops there. Do you guys really need them (outside of our sniper teams, which I am lead to believe are amongst the very best) or are we really more of a public relations effort. 133 dead for PR seems pretty fucking steep to me. I am inclined to say we should either get the fuck out or get the fuck in. Either pull our guys out or send a lot more there, so that we can be more than a heavily armed base perimeter force, which seems to be pretty much our role now.
Don't get me wrong, I am proud of what our boys are doing, I just question its worth. Wouldn't our 3000 lightly armed infantry be just as helpful to the US taking over garrison duty elsewhere in the world and freeing up US troops? Its what we are doing there, but we are dying there (including 6 killed by you guys - that's 5% of deaths due to friendly fire, pretty steep in my mind).
I am, to be honest, ashamed of our present government;s stand (and that of the previous government as well). We have just shy of 20,000 active duty troops in our army (the land-based army) and another 15,000 reserves, surely to god we can manage to field more than 3000, I mean what are the rest doing...just who are they defending us from? We seem to be rotating our troops in and out as some sort of live-fire training excercise. I think id we are going to bother being involved in a war, we shouldn't dick around. we should deploy a minimum of 15,000 active duty troops to Afghanistan & call up however many reserves we need for duty here at home (i.e. 0...I mean who are we afraid of...the Danes might invade from Greenland? the only other countries who can reach us are the US & Russia...and our whole army is only the equivalent of a reinforced division in either of those armies.
So what say you all, is there really any point in our 3000 contribution?



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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 6:30:52 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		No, just as there is no point to ours. It is a suicide mission if fought on Marquess of Queensbury rules of enagement.

Im not sure what friendly fire deaths you are referring to though. The only ones I know of were 4 in a single incident in the early stages of the war.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/19/2009 6:33:59 PM >

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 8:01:58 PM   
Fellow


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		As I understand, the real question is if Canada should continue participating in Afganistan war with US? 3000 well trained troops is a significant force. I would remain allied with US. There are benefits for doing so. 

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 9:37:19 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		I know very little about the Canadian military itself, so it is difficult to comment on that specific issue. I do know that if an allie has competent military leadership that recognizes the futility of waging a ground war there, then they should tell the US to fuck off until we are committed to getting the job done, without artificial deadlines created to appease a far left constituency.

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 9:45:59 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..

I'm sure whatever reason they are there..they are appreciated..least by me anyways. I'm not sure what your military does normally (the active portion) but if they are more geared at home to peace keeping type missions then I'd say yes most certainly and the snipers for sure.

US military is geared a lot for small covert crap..sneak in sneak out or go in guns blazing..do the job, and get out. Were not to good at peace keeping type situations and hit and run enemies to this magnitude is definately not something were use to..especially when the enemy is so willing to blow up their own countrymen or themselves in the process. :(

starshine


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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 9:48:48 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		As far as I am concerned they should all be withdrawn, both Canadian, UK, and US. Afghanastan and Pakistan are shit holes for which we have no clear mission and no clear national security interests. Let India and China worry about Pakistan's nuclear arms. The notion that we can train the Af army and occupy the land without mission creep into Pak seems doubtful. We are already flying drone missions in the tribal territories. Will you be surprised when we send boots in there? Bringem home. Looks to the Islamic world like just another white man's burden - imperialist adventure.

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!

Rudyard Kipling


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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 10:22:45 PM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		FAR AFGHANISTAN

Sit ye down and listen, sit and listen to my song
A sorrowful tale it is, but I will not keep you long
So listen and shed a tear, to the tale of handsome man
Nathan Smith has left us, gone to Afghanistan

A young man full of promise, tall and fit and slim
In all of Nova Scotia there was none to equal him
He bravely smiled as down his face the tears freely ran
"Wish me well my boys, for I'm off to far Afghanistan"

They said it was a noble cause, to avenge those cruelly slain
To make us safe in our homes, and safe in our fields once again
And so they went, went to face the guns of the Taliban
And left us here to wait in fear for news from Afghanistan

He told us he was safe, all was quiet there in Khandahar
He was in no danger, for the enemy had fled wide and far
And yet somehow it still happened, all in a moment's span
And now Nathan Smith will not be home from far Afganistan

R. P. G.
20/04/02

http://www.cbc.ca/ns/features/fallen-soliders/soliders-smith.html


< Message edited by Arpig -- 12/19/2009 10:33:13 PM >

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 10:27:18 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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Canada has 3,000 soldiers? Who knew?


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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 10:30:13 PM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		I agree that 3000 troops is handy, but really it isn't enough, if we are going to fight a war we shouldn't be doing it on the cheap. One of the main reasons Germany lost WW2 was its policy of Gund & Butter. If we are going to fight them, then lets fight them, with all we have. If we're just going to dick around with symbolic contributions then we are wasting lives for PR. At the end of WW2 Canada had the 3rd largest navy on the planet and the 5th largest army...all with a very small population. I think that if we are going to go to war, we owe it to our troops to not fuck around. The US is adding troops, we should as well, as I said if I were running the show I would triple our force. Hell if logistics is an issue well I am sure the US & UK would be more than happy to help if we were offering more than an understrength brigade. Then again if our government followed my idea of how to spend our military budget, the US would be bending over backwards to have even 3000 of our guys there....ah but I ain't likely to ever be in charge so we just have to make do with the present cowards- They haven't the balls to fight and they haven't the balls to pull out.


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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 10:35:35 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

~FR~

Canada has 3,000 soldiers? Who knew?

Actually we have a lot more as well...but they apparently are needed at home in case it snows in Toronto

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/19/2009 11:12:44 PM   
starshineowned


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Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I think that is the main problem right now though Arpig. Who are we really fighting. The innocent looking mother heading to the large market square wrapped in a ton of explosive around her? The little boy or girl doing the same after you just passed them on the road and gave them some candy? The seemingly standard family car parked along the curb of a busy downtown section? The goat farmer tending his flock who smiles and greets you and then whips out a rpg when your still in range but no longer looking back?

The only real options I see here is either get out now period..go or decide were going to stay period, and build up real military bases. I don't see the latter happening at all.

The seed of democracy has been planted and tasted. It is time to let them decide for themselves.

starshine


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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 2:04:15 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		It's politics Arpig. Countries (well governments more like) would rather be in and lose lives than be out and lose prestige/relations.....or where you have a Prime Minister like ours steeped in the liberal interventionist tradition of the Christian mission then you're in on a moral crusade. Tony Blair and associates are in the process of being put before parliament - cross examined and evidence heard from various sources - it seems they are guilty of a series of minor crimes (involving lying to Parliament and everything which that entails) which should result in jail time.

Is it pointless for Canadian troops? I suppose you need the truth on the objective and then you can draw a conclusion.

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 3:32:04 AM   
Aneirin


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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The thing is, The USSR sid not succeed in Afghanistan, who says the Allied forces will, or will it just be another case of shit loads of money.resources and lives wasted for yet another lesson learned and be repeated again at some point in the future.

Do we not know, we are inadvertantly exporting metals to the region, all that copper, brass and lead, copper, I understand to be particularly increasing in cost, so much so, the Chinese have bought a mountain in the hope it might bear copper ore, it has yet to be mined.

The cost of everything is rising, could the war be a reason for that.

A regards nuclear weaponry, damn Oppenheimer, we have created the ultimate bogeyman.


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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 4:03:53 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Its a NATO mission. Regardless of the lack of threat to Canada, the deal is that if Canada were attacked then the US and the rest of us should come to its aid. The US was attacked and the source was identified as Afghanistan as a place where the attackers had space to plan and prepare. So the rest of us according to the NATO contract came to its aid, however little it needed our aid.

Is the whole thing a mess? Has it been ill considered, badly planned and disastrously executed with no real prospect of identifiable victory? Oh yes.

Is the Canadian (3rd largest) or British (2nd largest) contingent all that relevant next to the many thousands of troops and the massive resources the US can put in? Not really - except in one important way, which many of our fellow Europeans fail to understand it seems - that this is a test of the credibility of NATO. If the rest of us pull out and leave the US to it then it says something important about NATO to those who hate us (including many who smile and shake our hands in public) and it says something just as important to the US and which has long been suspected - that NATO is basically the US underwriting the defence of all of the other members who feel no obligation in return.

E



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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 6:26:54 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		When you look at the way the majority of people die there it's quite a travesty of bad tactics.

They basically patrol around with targets on their backs waiting to be picked off, or they step on IED's, or their armoured convoy falls victim to a roadside bomb. Even I a non military expert can see it's madness to continue with these tactics of drawing people out to attack because they will and regardless of whether it is one lone person or a group of Taliban our people will be injured or killed by the element of surprise. How can you ever change the secret desires of a minority of criminals?

I would also like to know how a change of role to training the internal Afghan forces (which we were supposedly doing anyway) will affect how will operate. I also don't understand this idea that we will know we have quelled the Taliban resistance and so can leave. The Taliban resistance could be a handful of men with guns hiding in plain sight for eighteen months. Do people conduct surveys of how much violence occurs if so how will this mean anything if suddenly all violence stops? I’m trying to understand this measure of success that will mean we can withdraw the bulk of our forces?

I think I’m with the majority of people in that we deserve to be told more details by our governments of this mission or they can’t expect continued public support. The aim of keeping Al-Qaida away when there is little evidence they are there or will return is rather vague. Pakistan seems to be more of a hotspot for violence and we should help support the Pakistani government with their efforts rather than wading in blindly.

To get back to the op: I don't know why any of us are there including the Canadians. I feel either the mission as a whole is pointless or the governments haven't done enough to explain the importance and the significance of each country’s role.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/20/2009 6:32:15 AM >

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 11:21:42 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		After Obama committed 30,000 U.S. Troops to afganistan Yahoo News reported that all our Nato Allies committed "7,000" Troops.
Oh, is Spain still our "allie?"
Boy, what a great deal "NATO" is to be in ,...eh?

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 11:42:52 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		edited: because on reflection I can't be arsed.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/20/2009 12:03:46 PM >

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 11:43:34 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I know very little about the Canadian military itself, so it is difficult to comment on that specific issue. I do know that if an allie has competent military leadership that recognizes the futility of waging a ground war there, then they should tell the US to fuck off until we are committed to getting the job done, without artificial deadlines created to appease a far left constituency.


Amazing how this war was started by a far right President but has somehow miraculously morphed into an appeasement of the far left.



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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 11:57:26 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		Before I see this one more time on this thread and have to start pulling my hair out the word is ally.  The plural is allies.

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RE: Canada in Afghanistan...pointelss?? - 12/20/2009 12:20:24 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I know very little about the Canadian military itself, so it is difficult to comment on that specific issue. I do know that if an allie has competent military leadership that recognizes the futility of waging a ground war there, then they should tell the US to fuck off until we are committed to getting the job done, without artificial deadlines created to appease a far left constituency.


Amazing how this war was started by a far right President but has somehow miraculously morphed into an appeasement of the far left.




I think you are quite mistaken if you mean the far left in the US. There is no support for the war there. If you search you will find, I think, that the Obama WH pushed the far left aside on this one.

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