global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned

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LadyEllen -> global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 1:37:08 PM)
OK. I’ve been holding this one back for a while now, but in the spirit of the season lets go for it. It does not matter, repeat it does not matter, not one iota, whether climate change is or is not occurring, still less does it matter, if it is occurring, whether it is or isn’t caused by man. If it is occurring, for reasons unconnected with us, then there is little or nothing we should be able to do about it anyway – we have either had our turn on the planet or we haven’t, and it will come to an end one day anyway. If it is occurring because of us, then there is little or nothing we are prepared to do about it. But then that is hardly any wonder, after all its not likely to be us that is displaced or dies from whatever the consequences might be – it will be poor people round the world whom we will watch on TV whilst eating steak. And if it isn’t occurring at all, then what’s the problem? In this whole episode, now that the great majority of scientists and nations are agreed there is a problem that needs addressing, the one great lesson we can draw is that presented to us in small ways every day of our lives but here writ large, on a global scale. That ultimately we don’t give a flying fuck for our fellow man if its going to adversely affect us and ours. That ultimately all our charity and philanthropy is determined purely by our own selfish motives to feel warm and fuzzy inside and few are prepared to give or do more than what amounts to spare change that they don’t need. That ultimately it is our fear and distrust of others, our covetous jealousy and contempt that drive us, and when push comes to shove, despite our fine and noble pronouncements to the contrary we will gladly condemn millions to suffering if it means we might prosper. What a desperately unpleasant species we are; our destruction, whether by climate change or whatever, is almost certainly inevitable and will have been well deserved, should there be any sort of God or Karma in the cosmos to pass judgment. May the spirit of the holiday be with you and good will prevail unto all men, until the 26th anyway. After that, its open season again. E

pahunkboy -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 2:06:35 PM)
large banks are custodians of the public money. we see how they mismanaged and squandered such monies. The same banks will be handling cap and trade monies. To this I say- fool me once shame on you- fool me twice- shame on me.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 2:22:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen If it is occurring because of us, then there is little or nothing we are prepared to do about it. But then that is hardly any wonder, after all its not likely to be us that is displaced or dies from whatever the consequences might be – it will be poor people round the world whom we will watch on TV whilst eating steak. I dont know how you come to either conclusion.

tnai -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 2:36:04 PM)
Well someone doesn't like people (or themself) very much! I don't think because hundreds of countries represented by thousands of people can't come to a quick and easy solution for a problem that is very complicated (and many people feel is being over stated) shows that we are bad folk. And it sure don't show that banks are good or bad. I'll pray for you.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 2:57:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy large banks are custodians of the public money. we see how they mismanaged and squandered such monies. People are basically greedy they expect to put money in a bank and watch it grow. When all is going well and the risks pay off people are delighted with their banks. However when the risk taking (that is constantly occurring) goes wrong then people throw their arms up in outrage and claim the banks should be left to go bust; every bank except the bank that contains their money that is! quote: The same banks will be handling cap and trade monies. Probably it would be done through the IMF and central banks so not the same banks that you and I use. quote: To this I say- fool me once shame on you- fool me twice- shame on me. You forgot the line you usually put in saying "Buy Gold!" It's quite funny I assume when you buy this gold you aren’t actually keeping it in your house but instead are using a financial institution to act as go between similar to a bank? Yet you trust this organisation when it issues you with a certificate? Humm strange.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 2:57:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tnai Well someone doesn't like people (or themself) very much! I don't think because hundreds of countries represented by thousands of people can't come to a quick and easy solution for a problem that is very complicated (and many people feel is being over stated) shows that we are bad folk. And it sure don't show that banks are good or bad. I'll pray for you. I assume that wasnt addressed to me, it was, I have no clue what youre trying to say.

LadyEllen -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 3:43:20 PM)
It might be amazing that so many miss what ought to be a fairly simple point, but then given how often that seems to occur, probably not. "Follow the gourd" E

vincentML -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 3:52:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3 quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy large banks are custodians of the public money. we see how they mismanaged and squandered such monies. People are basically greedy they expect to put money in a bank and watch it grow. When all is going well and the risks pay off people are delighted with their banks. However when the risk taking (that is constantly occurring) goes wrong then people throw their arms up in outrage and claim the banks should be left to go bust; every bank except the bank that contains their money that is! People are basically greedy for putting their money into banks? When did saving cease to be a virtue? The "risks" being taken were leaveraged 43 dollars "invested" to one real dollar available to cover mortgage bundles no one understood and were falsely rated and with insurance policies which in turn were naked. All with the permission of the regulatory agencies and Federal Reserve who looked the other way. Some of these investment bankers should be in fucking jail along with the rating agencies and the Fed chairmen. Taxpayers and working people have a damn good case for outrage.

vincentML -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 3:55:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen It might be amazing that so many miss what ought to be a fairly simple point, but then given how often that seems to occur, probably not. "Follow the gourd" E Don't take this as a suckup but your OP was the best damn post I have seen on CM boards (because of course I agree with you [:D] )

tnai -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 3:59:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy I assume that wasnt addressed to me, it was, I have no clue what youre trying to say. No that was for LadyE. Anyone who thinks that God or Karma should destroy mankind has some issues.

vincentML -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 4:15:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tnai quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy I assume that wasnt addressed to me, it was, I have no clue what youre trying to say. No that was for LadyE. Anyone who thinks that God or Karma should destroy mankind has some issues. Funny, isn't that why Noah built his damn boat and took refuge with all those stinking, crapping, horny animals?

vincentML -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 4:26:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen If it is occurring, for reasons unconnected with us, then there is little or nothing we should be able to do about it anyway – we have either had our turn on the planet or we haven’t, and it will come to an end one day anyway. < BIG SNIP > What a desperately unpleasant species we are; our destruction, whether by climate change or whatever, is almost certainly inevitable and will have been well deserved, should there be any sort of God or Karma in the cosmos to pass judgment. The earth has been going through transformations for 5000 million years. Our species or relatives have rented space for maybe one or two million years. (I can never keep up with the latest findings) That is just like spit in the ocean. No reason to believe our species is destined to survive except in our own minds. My money is on the roaches. [:D] And why should it matter to any of us what the final outcome is of life on this planet before it is consumed by the expanding sun?

FirmhandKY -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 4:38:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen If it is occurring, for reasons unconnected with us, then there is little or nothing we should be able to do about it anyway – we have either had our turn on the planet or we haven’t, and it will come to an end one day anyway. < BIG SNIP > What a desperately unpleasant species we are; our destruction, whether by climate change or whatever, is almost certainly inevitable and will have been well deserved, should there be any sort of God or Karma in the cosmos to pass judgment. The earth has been going through transformations for 5000 million years. Our species or relatives have rented space for maybe one or two million years. (I can never keep up with the latest findings) That is just like spit in the ocean. No reason to believe our species is destined to survive except in our own minds. My money is on the roaches. [:D] And why should it matter to any of us what the final outcome is of life on this planet before it is consumed by the expanding sun? Interesting read I just finished a couple of days ago: Evolution by Stephen Baxter A small section of one reader review: 11 of 12 people found the following review helpful: 5.0 out of 5 stars Evolution on the Beach, March 18, 2004 By Barry Floyd "Secular Humanist" (New Jersey, USA) At over 640 pages, Evolution-by award winning author Stephen Baxter, a trained engineer with degrees from Cambridge and South-Ampton Universities-may not be exactly the sort of light reading one may think to bring to the beach this summer; however, its underling warning for the Human species may be a reminder of that other book concerning beaches. Evolution is perhaps the most interesting novel I have come across concerning the fate of humanity if we stay on our current course. But, rather than offer the reader the usual, overblown apocalyptic Sci Fi novel, or beating us over the head with a righteous morality play, Evolution takes the scientific route toward offering a subtle but very effective message. That message: We'd better begin to learn to cooperate as well as we compete or we Homo-Sapiens have already passed our prime. Evolution begins 65 Million Years ago when the comet which ended the reign of the dinosaurs on Earth was as bright in the sky as the sun. Baxter shows us the "lifestyle" of some of the late Cretaceous reptiles & birds from the "point of view" of the first primates-mousy little fur balls which hid from the thunder lizards by burrowing underground in the forests. Baxter names each animal we encounter-again, as the primates would see them-to give us a sense of the primates' existence and "state of mind"-as simple as some of those early minds were. This interesting technique allows the reader to partly identify with what occurs to these creatures on their road to modernity. We experience what it means to be human by what it meant to be each of these creatures in an ever changing environment. In essence, Evolution is a story of existence, adaptation, survival and extinction. Firm

Aneirin -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 5:07:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen OK. I’ve been holding this one back for a while now, but in the spirit of the season lets go for it. It does not matter, repeat it does not matter, not one iota, whether climate change is or is not occurring, still less does it matter, if it is occurring, whether it is or isn’t caused by man. If it is occurring, for reasons unconnected with us, then there is little or nothing we should be able to do about it anyway – we have either had our turn on the planet or we haven’t, and it will come to an end one day anyway. If it is occurring because of us, then there is little or nothing we are prepared to do about it. But then that is hardly any wonder, after all its not likely to be us that is displaced or dies from whatever the consequences might be – it will be poor people round the world whom we will watch on TV whilst eating steak. And if it isn’t occurring at all, then what’s the problem? In this whole episode, now that the great majority of scientists and nations are agreed there is a problem that needs addressing, the one great lesson we can draw is that presented to us in small ways every day of our lives but here writ large, on a global scale. That ultimately we don’t give a flying fuck for our fellow man if its going to adversely affect us and ours. That ultimately all our charity and philanthropy is determined purely by our own selfish motives to feel warm and fuzzy inside and few are prepared to give or do more than what amounts to spare change that they don’t need. That ultimately it is our fear and distrust of others, our covetous jealousy and contempt that drive us, and when push comes to shove, despite our fine and noble pronouncements to the contrary we will gladly condemn millions to suffering if it means we might prosper. What a desperately unpleasant species we are; our destruction, whether by climate change or whatever, is almost certainly inevitable and will have been well deserved, should there be any sort of God or Karma in the cosmos to pass judgment. May the spirit of the holiday be with you and good will prevail unto all men, until the 26th anyway. After that, its open season again. E Excellent, my sentiments exactly We preach good works, but how often do we follow them, the world it seems, is about profit, nothing more, we are all out to make, and make more than we need, at the expense of whatever is needed for us to achieve our aim. Goodwill to all men, I wonder if that is just another saying we like to use, but find difficult to follow. Who would take a loss to give goodwill to anyone.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 5:33:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The "risks" being taken were leaveraged 43 dollars "invested" to one real dollar available to cover mortgage bundles no one understood and were falsely rated and with insurance policies which in turn were naked. All with the permission of the regulatory agencies and Federal Reserve who looked the other way. Some of these investment bankers should be in fucking jail along with the rating agencies and the Fed chairmen. Taxpayers and working people have a damn good case for outrage. Banking regulation hasn't changed significantly recently, they just ran out of luck and it'll happen again. It's that 1 in 500 year rainfall return. Unless you are suggesting that banks have precise control over each and every individual circumstance in which they lend or invest money? The problem here has always been rewards in terms of big bonuses for taking risks. So in effect if someone is losing money they get a bonus for being brave and taking that risk that lead to this loss. That interest in people's savings is the result of banks taking risks on people and organisations, what you call a big risk or a small risk is really quite subjective. Risks regarding business loans: How would you define a business proposal that were more risky than another? A lot of the time people seeking loans are going to present the figures in the best possible light so unless the person granting the loan takes an equal amount of time to research the proposal themselves then they aren’t going to be able to find an opposing view. (Beyond the obvious such as selling moon real-estate). Risks regarding shares/currency/whatever trading: I've never understood this idea that trends in the market can be predicted (apart from the obvious seasonal ones such as at Christmas retailers do well). It basically comes down to confidence: buying something at the right price at the right time and then being able to sell it likewise. (Does anyone ever sell Google shares? Or Intel shares? Why would they and likewise why would you buy them unless you were looking for real long term investment.) I think that it is always going to be a pure gamble and I also think half of these investment banks move such large quantities of shares that it creates a feedback into the system meaning shares at any one point in time are always both drastically overpriced or underpriced compared to what the company is actually worth in financial terms. How many of these investment banks actually have time to read the AGM reports of all the companies they buy and sell shares in? It would be a summary at best and they have to do it for numerous companies. It’s pie in the sky numbers and they themselves are the biggest influence over them markets. They even say if it wasn’t for short selling they’d be no real movement in the market at all (they admit this). Also quarterly figures are not real time information but the share price of these companies goes up and down throughout the day (not just after each quarter). So there is no new information, only the information as to who is buying what share. The economy keeps moving but only if people are spending money they don’t have. Someone has to be declaring bankruptcy to keep the balance. This is the capitalist system.

pahunkboy -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 5:42:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3 quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy large banks are custodians of the public money. we see how they mismanaged and squandered such monies. People are basically greedy they expect to put money in a bank and watch it grow. When all is going well and the risks pay off people are delighted with their banks. However when the risk taking (that is constantly occurring) goes wrong then people throw their arms up in outrage and claim the banks should be left to go bust; every bank except the bank that contains their money that is! quote: The same banks will be handling cap and trade monies. Probably it would be done through the IMF and central banks so not the same banks that you and I use. quote: To this I say- fool me once shame on you- fool me twice- shame on me. You forgot the line you usually put in saying "Buy Gold!" It's quite funny I assume when you buy this gold you aren’t actually keeping it in your house but instead are using a financial institution to act as go between similar to a bank? Yet you trust this organisation when it issues you with a certificate? Humm strange. the carbon credits are going to trade in a way that derivatives do. I know precisely where my gold is and that it IS there. Also I use a credit union for paying bills. Not a bank. Even still- when the full effects of the bank mess are known- many will wish they had taken my advice. The FDID closed more banks this weekend. One is not allowed to close ones account-- and they do allow $500 to be taken out. ooh ahhh. Do you really trust Wall Street? I don't.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 5:51:29 PM)
That's nonsense carbon credits can't be traded on the equities market. I don't even like the term carbon credits because you can only sell carbon credits if you haven't got any to begin with. America can't sell carbon credits to anyone because it has too much all it can do is buy. Nobody buys it by choice they buy it by treaty agreement. It's not something you'd like to buy or trade in. In the end you have to trust someone, this is my point. Just like you type all kinds of private shit about yourself into Google search each year and hope that companies ethos doesn't change.

pahunkboy -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 5:54:06 PM)
dude there is a whole exchange set up in Chicago solely for that.

pahunkboy -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 5:55:16 PM)
http://www.chicagoclimatex.com/

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: global climate change catastrophe - lessons learned (12/23/2009 5:57:44 PM)
Don't buy anything from them[:D] What are they trading in exactly? Hot air? There isn't even the legal changes in place yet only the legal framework to act as guidance for each member state writing/amending their domestic laws.

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