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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/24/2009 10:23:08 PM   
Termyn8or


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UN, are you insinuating that they were "banking" on a bailout ?

Would thou prefer to be shot at sunrise, before they burn you at the stake for lunch ?

T

Added : My apologies to any who may be sarcismically challenged.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 12/24/2009 10:26:33 PM >

(in reply to UncleNasty)
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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 7:34:54 AM   
UncleNasty


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Term,

That is an interesting question.

Clearly bailouts of various and sundry have been a part of taxpayers burden for quite some time. G. Edward Griffin, in his 1994 work "The Creature From Jekyll Island, a Second Look at the Federal Reserve,"  includes a section in Chapter 1 that is subtitled "The Name of the Game is Bailout." He goes into some detail in re the "how's and who's."

To my knowledge there is no form of constitutional authority for the federal government to bail out any private entity. In fact there is the exact opposite.

After the S&L crisis of the 80's congress passed USC Title 12, Chapter 16, Section 1831o, the "Prompt Corrective Action" law (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/12/usc_sec_12_00001831---o000-.html) which clearly mandates that when private financial institutions, er, um, get into trouble they don't have money thrown at them, instead they are to be put into receivership. I have been debating, in cooperation with other knowledgeable folks, filing suit in Federal District Court against a host of parties (Bush, Obama, Bernanke, Paulson, Geithner, each and every member of the House and Senate that voted "yea" for TRAP, er, um TARP) that flagrantly disregarded this law, took action in direct conflict with this law, and gave trillions of dollars of my money to private institutions.

The 96 year history of the Federal Reserve System shows that consistently the US taxpayer is the "lender of last resort" and is relied upon to solve whatever problems the knuckleheads running the "creature" get themselves into. Rarely, if ever, do the bigger players come out on the loosing end of the game.

To answer your question directly Term, no. I don't believe they thought that far down the road.

Through the research I've done I'm more inclined to believe they set up a business model in which they would profit greatly by the failure of the paper they were creating, and then went out and created paper specifically designed to fail. There is profit by numerous parties, and at many levels, when there is failure and/or nonperformance. In addition to loans that fail to perform on their own there are a substantial number of "manufactured foreclosures" occurring. The latter has received virtually no coverage in the media but it happens more often than average Joe and Jane would believe.

Among the reasons "loan modifications" are not happening in significant numbers is that there is more profit from default and foreclosure than through modifications. Loan servicers and Trustees profit more from default and foreclosure. Neither Bush's HOPE nor Obama's HAMP are doing anything to solve the foundational problems. Until the underlying issues of housing, mortgages and foreclosures is effectively dealt with there will be no significant or lasting improvement.

For years mortgage insurance was a pretty safe bet. Mostly they collected premium payments and had to pay out little in claims. Fairly profitable it was. In the next 12-24 months I look for the mortgage insurance companies to seek BK protection - Radian, PMI, MGIC, etc. They can't keep up with the current load. Some puts on these companies may render some tidy profits in the near future.

Uncle Nasty







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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 7:39:47 AM   
flcouple2009


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When the banks  and Wall Street begged for the regulations to be eased it was under the premise that it was needed for competition.  They were complaining about the deals and transactions they were losing out on to the international firms that didn't have these regulations to follow.  I don't believe anyone imagined the schemes and ways that Wall Street could corrupt that idea to make a buck.

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 9:52:58 AM   
Musicmystery


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Thing is, industry will ALWAYS claim regulations are too strict, taxes are excessive, energy rates are too high, workers are over paid---duh. If you ran my company, I'd expect you to fight for those things too.

Doesn't make it so, though. Just means it's not a surprising position, and not a reason for the rest of us to listen.

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 12:58:36 PM   
AnimusRex


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Were I to be sarcastic, I would suggest that what we really need is some sort of government regulatory agency, a commission of financial experts to oversee the sale and exchange of securities to prevent this sort of things.

Maybe like, a Securities and Exchange Commission, armed with strict policies and enforcement power. One that really, truly was tasked with protecting the public's interest, instead of the interests of the Wall Street investment banks.

Maybe someday we will get such a public agency. Oh, and maybe a magic pony.

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 2:59:54 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Oh, and maybe a magic pony.


To ride on your boat?



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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 4:23:01 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Were I to be sarcastic, I would suggest that what we really need is some sort of government regulatory agency, a commission of financial experts to oversee the sale and exchange of securities to prevent this sort of things.

Maybe like, a Securities and Exchange Commission, armed with strict policies and enforcement power. One that really, truly was tasked with protecting the public's interest, instead of the interests of the Wall Street investment banks.

Maybe someday we will get such a public agency. Oh, and maybe a magic pony.


What are you, some kind of a socialist?


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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 5:45:56 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

"While the investigations are in the early phases, authorities appear to be looking at whether securities laws or rules of fair dealing were violated by firms that created and sold these mortgage-linked debt instruments and then bet against the clients who purchased them, people briefed on the matter say.

"One focus of the inquiry is whether the firms creating the securities purposely helped to select especially risky mortgage-linked assets that would be most likely to crater, setting their clients up to lose billions of dollars if the housing market imploded.

"Some securities packaged by Goldman and Tricadia ended up being so vulnerable that they soured within months of being created.

"Goldman and other Wall Street firms maintain there is nothing improper about synthetic C.D.O.’s, saying that they typically employ many trading techniques to hedge investments and protect against losses. They add that many prudent investors often do the same. Goldman used these securities initially to offset any potential losses stemming from its positive bets on mortgage securities.

"But Goldman and other firms eventually used the C.D.O.’s to place unusually large negative bets that were not mainly for hedging purposes, and investors and industry experts say that put the firms at odds with their own clients’ interests."

Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won


If readers think this is a past practice, it is not.  Last week, Hoffa wrote a very critical letter to Goldman about the new credit default swaps Goldman was writing in regard to Roadway/Yellow Freight, the largest LTL trucking company in the US.  Hoffa claimed the default swaps were greasing the slide of the largest LTL trucking company's slide into bankruptcy.  Is Hoffa right for once?  Probably.

Does Goldman care if its actions cause Roadway to end up in bankruptcy?  Obviously not.  Nor does Goldman care about what will happen to the US economy when the company that still has 40% of the LTL business goes belly up.  Goldman will make a lot of money under the "profit motive."  Much of the money will go to republicans to make sure they vote as a block when others call for a criminal investigation.  And the beat goes on.

< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 12/25/2009 6:27:32 PM >

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 5:56:05 PM   
DarkSteven


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MusicMystery, I don't agree that simply regulating CDOs could fix this.  CDOs, plain and simple, are ridiculously complicated, and that's why there was so much misunderstanding of them and their risk, and why unraveling their mess is such a nightmare.

Just outlaw the damn things.  There's no need for them, and they're subject to abuse.

However, your quoted article makes the claim that the "bets" were not part of hedging, which is a simple and useful tool.  I'm not sure where that assessment came from, and I don't see any effective law outlawing these bets which would not also outlaw hedging.

Like I say, quit trying to regulate something so opaque, and just outlaw the things.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 6:35:06 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

MusicMystery, I don't agree that simply regulating CDOs could fix this.  CDOs, plain and simple, are ridiculously complicated, and that's why there was so much misunderstanding of them and their risk, and why unraveling their mess is such a nightmare.

Just outlaw the damn things.  There's no need for them, and they're subject to abuse.

However, your quoted article makes the claim that the "bets" were not part of hedging, which is a simple and useful tool.  I'm not sure where that assessment came from, and I don't see any effective law outlawing these bets which would not also outlaw hedging.

Like I say, quit trying to regulate something so opaque, and just outlaw the things.



During the Bush administration there was a female attorney of stature (large Washington DC law firm) placed as the head of an agency who had some power over futures.  She tried to regulate these things and was run over by Bush and Greenspan et al. 

It would be interesting to see someone try to regulate them (or abolish them) again and see what happens.  Has anything really changed?

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 6:51:33 PM   
yummee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Oh, and maybe a magic pony.


To ride on your boat?





This boat's better ... and the song is so ridiculous its hysterical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7yfISlGLNU


(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 8:06:49 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

MusicMystery, I don't agree that simply regulating CDOs could fix this.  CDOs, plain and simple, are ridiculously complicated, and that's why there was so much misunderstanding of them and their risk, and why unraveling their mess is such a nightmare.

Just outlaw the damn things.  There's no need for them, and they're subject to abuse.

However, your quoted article makes the claim that the "bets" were not part of hedging, which is a simple and useful tool.  I'm not sure where that assessment came from, and I don't see any effective law outlawing these bets which would not also outlaw hedging.

Like I say, quit trying to regulate something so opaque, and just outlaw the things.



During the Bush administration there was a female attorney of stature (large Washington DC law firm) placed as the head of an agency who had some power over futures.  She tried to regulate these things and was run over by Bush and Greenspan et al. 

It would be interesting to see someone try to regulate them (or abolish them) again and see what happens.  Has anything really changed?



Brooksley Born; she chaired the CFTC. Frontline did a terrific profile of her a few months ago. Definitely worth a watch for anyone who hasn't seen it.

The Warning

But nobody was listening to her then, and nobody will listen to her now. That's why it will definitely happen again.

I agree with Steven, the only thing to do is get rid of them. But that will never happen, because the trading firms will not permit the government to outlaw them.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 8:47:16 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

Brooksley Born; she chaired the CFTC. Frontline did a terrific profile of her a few months ago. Definitely worth a watch for anyone who hasn't seen it.

The Warning

But nobody was listening to her then, and nobody will listen to her now. That's why it will definitely happen again.

I agree with Steven, the only thing to do is get rid of them. But that will never happen, because the trading firms will not permit the government to outlaw them.


Thanks for the reference.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 9:03:31 PM   
gift4mistress


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I hate to sound like a nut case, but it seems like ever since 9-11 almost every industry has become corrupt for money and power. Examples of industries that have are the health care industry, banks, and the military industrial complex. Personally, there needs to be widespread investigation of these entire industries and politicians that are fed by them. Some of these elitists are going mad with power and they need to be thrown to the dirt. This isn't a left or right issue this is a world issue. It's affecting everyone except for the few in a negative fashion.


< Message edited by gift4mistress -- 12/25/2009 9:05:38 PM >

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/25/2009 9:48:05 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gift4mistress

I hate to sound like a nut case, but it seems like ever since 9-11 almost every industry has become corrupt for money and power. Examples of industries that have are the health care industry, banks, and the military industrial complex. Personally, there needs to be widespread investigation of these entire industries and politicians that are fed by them. Some of these elitists are going mad with power and they need to be thrown to the dirt. This isn't a left or right issue this is a world issue. It's affecting everyone except for the few in a negative fashion.


Do you really think that was when it started? I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm just curious. My impression is that it goes back further than that, but it's not like i can name the day and date. Seems to me it goes back at least  as far as the Clinton years, when Greenspan really got out of control and opened up the floodgates, and maybe as far back as the Reagan Administration.

But regardless of when it started, I see the same thing you see. I call it "predatory capitalism." And I don't see it ever being reversed. It's the new way of the world.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/26/2009 6:47:29 AM   
UncleNasty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Were I to be sarcastic, I would suggest that what we really need is some sort of government regulatory agency, a commission of financial experts to oversee the sale and exchange of securities to prevent this sort of things.

Maybe like, a Securities and Exchange Commission, armed with strict policies and enforcement power. One that really, truly was tasked with protecting the public's interest, instead of the interests of the Wall Street investment banks.

Maybe someday we will get such a public agency. Oh, and maybe a magic pony.


LOL.

We have a number of "regulatory" agencies, nearly all of which have failed to do their job. Our courts, at almost all levels and almost all jurisdictions, are also at great fault as they are the last line of enforcement, and the last line of defense and protection of victims.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/26/2009 8:28:27 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

Not only did "they" bundle bad debt "they" also intentionally created bad debt in the form of mortgages that were designed to fail. The bundles failed because the individual pieces and parts in the bundles failed en masse.

To quote Silence from above, "It just seems that if you're betting something to fail, your 'incentivized' to make it fail." That is exactly what happened.

There are many layers to this fraud and connecting the dots is no small task. I know of a number of individuals working on a "big picture connection," and also a number working on separate pieces. Eventually the picture will be completely and accurately drawn but I have doubts as to holding offending and/or guilty parties accountable in any meaningful ways.

Uncle Nasty




well if you would like to have some fun, most mortgages, the banks sold the original note before the ink was dry.  Guess what they need prove up the claim?  Lots of people are getting their mortgages written off.





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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/26/2009 8:36:41 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gift4mistress

I hate to sound like a nut case, but it seems like ever since 9-11 almost every industry has become corrupt for money and power. Examples of industries that have are the health care industry, banks, and the military industrial complex. Personally, there needs to be widespread investigation of these entire industries and politicians that are fed by them. Some of these elitists are going mad with power and they need to be thrown to the dirt. This isn't a left or right issue this is a world issue. It's affecting everyone except for the few in a negative fashion.



I dont know how it will be received on this board and frankly I am not here to argue the point or cram it down anyones throat because I really dont care how others govern their lives or lack of it because very little of it affects me anyway........but you might want to take a look at my post

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2967413/tm.htm

coming to grips with that is sort of the beginning of the journey to freedom for those who seek it.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/26/2009 8:39:31 AM   
Musicmystery


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Cross posting is frowned upon.

We can read.

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RE: Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won - 12/26/2009 8:42:01 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

MusicMystery, I don't agree that simply regulating CDOs could fix this.  CDOs, plain and simple, are ridiculously complicated, and that's why there was so much misunderstanding of them and their risk, and why unraveling their mess is such a nightmare.

Just outlaw the damn things.  There's no need for them, and they're subject to abuse.


I'm in essential agreement with you, Steven, as I think responsible regulation would have prevented them. It's a virtually untraceable asset specifically designed to hide its true toxic value on the balance sheets. That it isn't already criminal to do so astounds me, and point again to the huge mistake made in deregulation of the finance (and mortgage) industries.

As I pointed out earlier:

quote:

Thing is, industry will ALWAYS claim regulations are too strict, taxes are excessive, energy rates are too high, workers are over paid---duh. If you ran my company, I'd expect you to fight for those things too.

Doesn't make it so, though. Just means it's not a surprising position, and not a reason for the rest of us to listen.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 40
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