RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade?

RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 11:58:30 AM)
quote: What happened was the fulfilment of the free market ideology so often found being pushed vigorously here. No you didn't. There has never been a completely "free market ideology" nor, appropriately in my opinion, will there ever be such an environment. What you had, what you have, and what you will always have (swinging back and forth between the poles of socialist and capitalistic agenda) is a regulated market. All the 'good intent' from either pole position gets lost in the source. Look no further than the Health Care issue - pragmatically necessary, but the regulatory result generated by Congress where the first dollar of benefit only comes after 5 years of tax and bureaucracy establishment, points to how the good intent never generates good results. Meanwhile truth is sacrificed and ridiculous compromises, such as the exempting of one State - Nebraska from a tax every other State must pay (at a higher share due to this pay-off) are rationalized. There's another reason for bad results coming from 'good intent'; even when the goal is closer to the center of the polarized positions. As great as the compensation and perks are for an attorney working in the public sector, and considering that the quickest way to become a millionaire is to be elected to Congress, on the other side of the regulations await the private sector attorneys. They have already figured out how to circumvent any legislation Congress can devise. It's really an unfair battle, because even 'victory', as exhibited by the California legislation passing the largest tax increase in the history of the US earlier this year, results is abject failure. The result of that tax increase to "solve" the State deficit issue being illustrative - tax revenues fell by over 20% and there is yet another $20 Billion of deficit facing CA. Why? Well - even if you can't circumvent the regulations you can leave them. Individually you can give yourself a 10% raise by moving from CA to Texas. A small businessman, without large State or local markets to consider, can and is moving his entire business to take advantage of that situation. Taking with him employment along with his/her former tax revenue. Nationally this is what happened to large businesses and industries. Hard industry and manufacturing were and are being regulated out of the country. There is no place they can relocate with a "free market". There are plenty of places, making sense under the circumstances, to relocate having 'better' regulatory conditions and with a political environment more conducive to their corporate and private profit agenda. Even the 'Grand Cayman' island banks and insurance entities are not "free markets". They are simply better places to do business under certain conditions than anywhere else on the planet. Internationally or domestically in the US - every day decisions are being made by people having the ability to affect millions of jobs generating trillions of tax revenue. I don't know one seeking a "free market". I know many who are seeking and moving to places where it is not so expensive. You should root for them to come locally because all those entitlements and bureaucrats providing social services have to be paid for by somebody. All the 'good intent' feeling they produce are on the cost side of the ledger. The income side - is listening to their private sector lawyers, generating the current results; which are much more reflective of current policy and, although contributory, not so much on past decisions.

LadyEllen -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 6:33:15 PM)
Talking about teens - the teenagers of today that is. I became a teenager in 1980, just as Mrs Thatcher was settling into Downing Street. Of ten of my peers, family and friends, who are the same or about the same age as me, four have never worked one day in their lives. There were no jobs when they left education. By the time any economic recovery occurred in the late 80s/early 90s, they were too old and inexperienced to be able to get gainful employment. So they have spent the 20 odd years of their adult lives on welfare. If we are to undergo a similar decade of high unemployment, we shall have another lost generation to support in years to come. The UK government did all sorts to hide this embarassment through the 80s. The Youth Opportunity Programme was followed by the Youth Training Scheme. Both were schemes funded by government to provide work to school leavers for 2 years after which the jobs became permanent and the payroll shifted to the employer. Countless thousands found themselves dismissed a day or so before the two years were up, with no right to complain, and replaced with new slave labour. E

MzMia -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 6:42:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen As a business, if no one (or not enough people) want or can afford your service or product, you are doomed to fail. There is so much that creative marketing can do, but ultimately it cannot make up for a service or product that is too expensive or not as good as another. As a worker the same things apply. If your salary need is too expensive or your work not as good as that of another you are not going to get the job. Where one competes for business or a job against roughly equal competitors on the cost/benefit analysis in a small pool of competitors, supply and demand means that even the poorest competitor will enjoy some success at gaining business or employment; the availability of resource in the market will oblige some to buy from the poorest competitor or employ him. Where one competes in a world wide market of competitors however, who will take a smaller salary or charge a lower price and provide more work or a product or service of acceptable quality, the same supply and demand influences mean that the poorest competitors may not receive any business or gain any employment, since the availability of resource in the market is so large that all buyers can buy from the more competitive and need not pay more or accept less simply in order to meet their need. In short, unless we are prepared to accept one bowl of rice for an 18 hour shift, 7 days a week, give up our central heating, cars and the remainder of our western lifestyle, we must accept high unemployment. Global trade is here to stay, unfortunately for most; our personal choices amount to the above dismal prospect, finding something that simply cannot be outsourced (difficult) or catch a ride on the race to the bottom, dismissing any concern or interest for the plight of those whom you must thereby exploit. This is the fulfilment of the free market that was rolled back slightly over the 20th century by the march of socialist and liberal ideas that held that the riches ought to be shared more fairly and the law ought to act to improve the lives of the poor and exploited by limiting their exploitation. It is no good now to complain that the game is rigged, when it is a game which most of us were winning until quite recently and held up as the ideal framework for any economy, and which some to this day - though they too must ultimately fall victim, stubbornly protest to be such. E What a wonderful post as usual Lady E. What amazes me, is the fact that more people don't speak up about what is happening in the world today. The global market has changed the "rules" and the "game", and many do not want to believe that. I enjoy hearing about the economic situation across the "great pond". Thank you for expressing your thoughts so well, in a manner most people can understand. ......IF they want to!..... [;)]

MzMia -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 6:52:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Indeed Vincent - but I ask myself, why did we have the boom in credit, the bubbles in housing and commodities? Namely, I conclude, because we had nothing else with which to conjure the illusion of wealth having stripped our nations bare through supporting a mindless "market knows best" economic ideology by agreeing global trade deals and removing regulation. What happened was the fulfilment of the free market ideology so often found being pushed vigorously here. Its really quite ironic to hear some protesting the inevitable effects realised. E Many people do not want to think, see or accept that they are competiting with people in 3rd world countries these days. If you had told me as a teenager, that Americans and Europeans would sit back and watch as many of their jobs were outsourced, without protesting in the streets I would have called you crazy, Lady E. Now look at the number of unemployed and underemployed? No fucking end in site for at least another decade. Many of the "middle class" will be slipping into the "lower class", and many generations will not be doing BETTER than their parents. Many do not want to accept it, Lady E, no matter how bad things get.

MzMia -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 7:04:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Talking about teens - the teenagers of today that is. I became a teenager in 1980, just as Mrs Thatcher was settling into Downing Street. Of ten of my peers, family and friends, who are the same or about the same age as me, four have never worked one day in their lives. There were no jobs when they left education. By the time any economic recovery occurred in the late 80s/early 90s, they were too old and inexperienced to be able to get gainful employment. So they have spent the 20 odd years of their adult lives on welfare. If we are to undergo a similar decade of high unemployment, we shall have another lost generation to support in years to come. The UK government did all sorts to hide this embarassment through the 80s. The Youth Opportunity Programme was followed by the Youth Training Scheme. Both were schemes funded by government to provide work to school leavers for 2 years after which the jobs became permanent and the payroll shifted to the employer. Countless thousands found themselves dismissed a day or so before the two years were up, with no right to complain, and replaced with new slave labour. E Lady E, Lady E...... I love to read most of your posts. Thank you for posting this. I had heard that many Europeans are in dire straights when in comes to obtaining employment, also. Europe Suffers Record Employment Losses, With More to Come as Jobless-Recovery Concerns Go Global

TheHeretic -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 8:15:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I became a teenager in 1980, just as Mrs Thatcher was settling into Downing Street. Of ten of my peers, family and friends, who are the same or about the same age as me, four have never worked one day in their lives. I simply cannot get my head around this, LadyE. I'm right there at the same age, and had worked all sorts of odd jobs by the time I became a teen. Mowing lawns, delivering newspapers, sweeping up around my "grandfather's" shop... If they announced schools were closed because of snow, I was out there with a shovel to knock on doors and clear sidewalks. Now there have been periods in my life where I wasn't working at all (or sticking my hand out for a gov't check), but that was a consequence of choices I made, and eventually, I'd get right back in there. How does someone "never" work??? Don't you have temp agencies? Day labor? Housekeeping? Surely they have some retail experience selling weed or something? How comfy does a rut need to be before people never bother to get out of it? This is where I glitch with the welfare system here. It isn't the inevitable fraud, so much as the dependency and entitlement mentalities it nurtures.

MzMia -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 8:37:04 PM)
Many in America are unaware about high unemployment in Europe. I have been following this for a while now, Rich. You would REALLY be surprised if/when you start looking a little closer. Jobless reality is hitting home for graduates in class of 2009 \| Business BBC News - Long-term unemployment has doubled, TUC says Start looking around at unemployment numbers around the world, and see how great all this globalization is working, Rich. The job market appears to be bleak and depressing in the UK. I enjoying hearing LadyE inform us of the economic realities in the UK. There is a large and ever growing number of individual's that have not had a "job", and may never work a "job" in Europe. [;)]

TheHeretic -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 10:20:48 PM)
I wasn't suggesting she was making it up, or even exaggerating Mia. I just can't get my head around people who stay there forever.

Real0ne -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 10:21:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Many in America are unaware about high unemployment in Europe. I have been following this for a while now, Rich. You would REALLY be surprised if/when you start looking a little closer. Jobless reality is hitting home for graduates in class of 2009 \| Business BBC News - Long-term unemployment has doubled, TUC says Start looking around at unemployment numbers around the world, and see how great all this globalization is working, Rich. The job market appears to be bleak and depressing in the UK. I enjoying hearing LadyE inform us of the economic realities in the UK. There is a large and ever growing number of individual's that have not had a "job", and may never work a "job" in Europe. [;)] the problem with the unemployment numbers is that they are way low. Once a person stops collecting they drop off the list even though they are unemployeed.

pahunkboy -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/28/2009 10:55:55 PM)
Gosh for me the 80s had some jobs... not astoundingly great- but still work. Many in my school got work permits to work and 15 and age 14. (me included)

MzMia -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/29/2009 5:48:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I wasn't suggesting she was making it up, or even exaggerating Mia. I just can't get my head around people who stay there forever. Rich, I guess when you are surrounded by family and friends that have never worked, you create your own little world of the "unemployed". Also, many people find it hard to move when they have family, friends, and ties to a country.

MzMia -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/29/2009 5:50:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Gosh for me the 80s had some jobs... not astoundingly great- but still work. Many in my school got work permits to work and 15 and age 14. (me included) [8\|], pahunky, you do realize this conversation was about youth in the UK? Even though many teenagers in the United States are having a hard time finding jobs these days. I think unemployment among American teens is about 26%.

LadyEllen -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/29/2009 8:35:59 AM)
Hi Rich Yep I totally share your misunderstanding to a point - how can someone never have worked? It comes from two factors really, the first being the benefits trap we have here and the second being the psychological effects of being out of work for a long period. The benefits trap is an interesting one; basically, as long as one is not single one is often better off financially on benefits than in work if one does not have the skills to attract a decent level of pay. The welfare cheque itself is pretty small and nowhere near enough to support a person, but when you throw in all the other items which are paid for you (rent for instance) and the items you get subsidy on (local tax) and consider that what youre getting is tax free then it can, calculating backwards to a gross salary figure, represent an adequate income - nowhere near the average income for the UK but certainly competitive with an in some cases in excess of a working wage. For example I was looking at employing one of my four unemployed acquaintances and I sat down with him to work out what I'd need to pay him to make it worth his while. The answer was £19,000-00 per annum, which once he'd paid tax deductions etc would give him an income slightly above the value of his benefits. To truly make it worth his while I'd have to pay him £25,000-00 per annum - the average wage in the UK. The problem was there was no way that his work would be worth that much or could be made to be worth that much. The psychological effects of unemployment, even in the short term, are well known to any who have found themselves in that position. The process of repeated rejection takes an obvious toll and within months motivation is being lost rapidly alongside self esteem, with depression to varying degrees setting in. When that situation obtains for a year and then years at a time the whole thing is exacerbated. Factor in the possible loss of car and home, the family breakdowns that occur and the substance abuse that becomes the only outlet and one might wonder how anyone might survive the experience, let alone persevere to come out the other side. Long term unemployment blights entire districts of most towns and cities here; the average unemployment rate here in the Midlands for instance is around 10% right now, but in some districts its as high as 80%, with entire communities out of work and within them entire extended families from grandparents down to teenagers. The grandparents lost their jobs in the 80s, their kids emerged from school straight onto benefits and their kids in turn now face the same - unemployment and welfare dependency is the lifestyle they know. For employers like me this makes things difficult. I'd love to give some of these people a chance you know? The problem is they really have no idea what work is, what is expected and why. And its a malaise that runs far more deeply than just this underclass, for everyone now knows and understands that they can lose their jobs at any time, regardless of how good they are and what effort they put in. The result is a huge number of people who see no point in committing themselves to their work and basically tread water, expecting the bullet at any moment. It is really difficult to find good people these days. The one great thing about opening the UK to the new entrants to the EU in central and eastern Europe has been that we have seen an influx of motivated candidates for our business. Over the last six years I have employed around 20 people, of which 5 have been from these new member states. Its a sad reflection on the UK that I can say that of the 15 or so Brits I would have kept only 4 but of the overseas contingent I'd have kept the lot of them and in fact have kept 4 of the 5. That UK employers in general see these people as worth so little next to the inflated salary demands of the lazy Brits is sad and stupid; we pay everyone the same for the same job and give our immigrants what is a great deal by comparison (ie 10 days off over Christmas to go home that doesnt eat into their holiday allowance, all paid). E

pahunkboy -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/29/2009 8:58:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Gosh for me the 80s had some jobs... not astoundingly great- but still work. Many in my school got work permits to work and 15 and age 14. (me included) [8\|], pahunky, you do realize this conversation was about youth in the UK? Even though many teenagers in the United States are having a hard time finding jobs these days. I think unemployment among American teens is about 26%. Yes- I know. Just a glimpse of that era. I like to compare and contrast between various counties. Typically tho- anything in America is myopic in the public arena- most have no idea what is happening in other countries- nor any sense of history. In the long run- that is not a good thing. I wonder how many could even find Europe in a map. -just sayn-

popeye1250 -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/29/2009 11:42:05 AM)
Lady Ellen, about four years ago I met an elderly lady in a store here who I heard talking with a very British accent. She told me she was from Sheffield, England and I replied remembering from my school days; "Oh! Where they make all the nice knives." She said, "no, where we used to make all the nice knives." Sheffield cutlery was world famous when I was a kid. Top of the line cutlery! Now most stuff is made in "China" and of inferior quality. There's some still made in Germany and it's expensive but well worth it. People should be able to work in Western countries and make a good living. Big corporations have taken over our governments in those free trade deals and the people be damned. Sheffield must be rundown now, I could tell by the sadness in that woman's voice. "Stuck in bloody chickentown." How do they expect people to make much less money but continue to buy their products that are made at third world wages? Anytime I hear big corporations or the govt. say the word "consumers" I know we're going to get screwed! I had high hopes for Obama but alas, it appears he was in the pockets of big corporations the whole time.

MzMia -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/29/2009 6:57:52 PM)
LadyE, thank you again for a marvelous post. Understanding the mindset and the plight of those that have several generations dealing with high or no employment, is unfathomable for many of us. It is great the UK does provide benefits that include welfare. The fact that so many have lost the work "ethic" or the will to try to improve their lot in life, is sad. I hope "something" can be down to help the chronically unemployed in the UK, but I can't imagine what it will be. Happy New Year

Brain -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/29/2009 7:44:27 PM)
This guy is the former Labor Secretary in the Clinton administration, and I like him. I think he's a good guy and I've always believed in the free enterprise system although the invisible hand of Adam Smith does not function ideally and needs some regulation. I actually think this idea would be good for the economy and getting rid of corporate taxes and criminal liability would reduce the rate of unemployment. In addition, it looks like this idea would help to eliminate bad behavior by corporations by doing something about this horrible lobbying!!! Ridiculous the amount of money being spent on lobbying these days. I don't think anything sticks out in my mind where corporate executives are being held responsible criminally anyway. I don't know if Madoff counts. They sure are not doing anything to the crooks on Wall Street, that's for sure. Robert Reich and the Elimination of Corporate Criminal Liability The Corporate Crime Reporter Corporate income tax? Out.Corporate social responsibility? Out. Corporate criminal liability? Out. Milton Friedman? No. Try Robert Reich. Yes, the liberal, Robert Reich - Bill Clinton's Secretary of Labor. In his new book, Supercapitalism: The Transformation of Business, Democracy and Everyday Life (Knopf, 2007), Reich says corporate social responsibility is a diversion and an illusion, the corporate income tax is inefficient and inequitable, and corporate criminal liability is based on an anthropomorphic fallacy that hurts a lot of innocent people. But with Reich, it's a package deal. Yes, he would eliminate corporate criminal liability. Yes he would get rid of the corporate income tax. But he would also strip corporations of their constitutional rights. "Corporations should have no more legal right to free speech, due process, or political representation in a democracy than do any other pieces of paper on which contracts are written," he writes. "Legislators or judges who grant corporations such rights are not being intellectually honest, or they are unaware of the effects of supercapitalsim. Only people should possess such rights." Reich says that while supercapitalism delivers products galore at low, low prices to the American consumer - at the same time it undermines democracy by flooding the public arena with private lobbyists, cash, and corporate influence. The cure? Reich wants a bright line separation between the corporate and the public arenas. In return, he'd zero out corporate criminal liability and the corporate income tax. http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/07/3686 quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia I have read at least 7-10 articles that are predicting that unemployment will probably remain high in the United States for at least the next 3-7 years. I will post 2 links, but feel free to research this yourself. [;)] Even as Economy Mends, a Jobless Decade May Loom - NYTimes.com UCLA 2010 Economic Forecast: High Unemployment \| Wall Street Survivor University With 4 days left till a New Year, I doubt we will have any "Magical Job Recovery" coming any time soon. I read or heard somewhere that if we "create" 300,000 jobs a month, the unemployment numbers will only go down to about 8% next year. I certainly don't see that happening, at all. It looks like we will have several years of very high unemployment, and maybe an even longer period of people being "under" employed. This is my take on the unemployment situation for at least 2010-2015. Do you agree with my thoughts/and the thought of many on high unemployment for at least the next 1-5 years? Also, what do you think could/should be done to create jobs and also help the millions that are underemployed?

popeye1250 -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (12/30/2009 12:31:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark I expect them to earn those dollars WE(you and I) gave them to keep them afloat!....To be responsible and responsive to the needs of those who keep them in business....to not take MASSIVE bonuses when they need the money we gave them to survive.....not to make a profit on the backs of the public!.... I understand why Obama refers to them as FATCATS.....I begrudge no man success, but for business to function they must LEND money!....if they were to free up the supply they would not incure the wrath of the President nor would they be looked upon as piriah in the eyes of the public..... Hey Mark, I've heard somewhere that some business owners are joining credit unions to get the money they need. Good idea! P.S. as I said in another thread if I ever get on a jury and the guy is a bank robber it'll be an automatic "Not Guilty!" from me!

MzMia -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (1/10/2010 7:18:12 PM)
We are not far from the record high number of unemployed during the LAST Great Depression Only about 8 points to go until we are officially in another Depression. I never thought I would live to see a Depression, but it appears that I will. The government tells us that unemployment is 10%, but the real numbers are about 17%. During the last great depression, unemployment topped around 25% in 1933. That means when/IF unemployment goes up about 7-8 points we will be in a Depression. If/when that happens I can't wait to see the powers that be, play it down. Personally, I think many play this down because they don't want to start a panic situation. The Ticker - Truer unemployment rate rises to 17.3% - Economy Watch

sappatoti -> RE: The Terrible Teens? Unemployment to remain high for MOST of the decade? (1/10/2010 7:30:12 PM)
Locally, the county I live currently states its "official" unemployment rate at 12.7%. That's based upon the usual statistics of those applying for or maintaining their unemployment assistance. Unofficially, local officials have thrown about the estimate of 20% unemployed, underemployed, and those who have given up looking or have used up all of their assistance and have fallen off the official statistics. The employment forecast for my county isn't good. The "official" unemployment figure could rise to as much as 16% over the next two years before it starts leveling off. Living in a rural setting can be quite bucolic at times. Unfortunately, it can also be a pain in the ass during times like this.

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