RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/30/2009 4:48:56 PM)

If it is the various agencies that are the problem in these cases, then they quite clearly do not work, their need overhaul. My understanding of the agencies that receive vast amounts of funding and have liberties beyond the rule of law should be there working in the background ensuring the citizens of a country are not threatened. Perhaps if the agencies were effective, we would not even hear of what threats are being made to law abiding tax paying citizens. Failures of agencies causes public concern and there a breeding ground for the fear driven, all of which destabilizes the seat of power. This considered, agencies hold a lot of power and can destroy political careers quite easily.

The question is about loyalty, and we all know loyalty in humankind is very fickle.




thornhappy -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/30/2009 5:06:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


We could stop strip searching little old ladies and focus more on Arabic looking men (and Nigerians) in the 20 - 30 year old range, traveling on one way tickets half way around the world with little or no baggage.

But that would make too much sense, because that describes almost every "alleged" terror suspect who has ever tried to attack the United States.


Yup.  McVeigh and Nichols looked Middle Eastern or Nigerian.

forgot to add... Israel used to profile young Palestinians.  So they started sending women to be suicide bombers. 

When did a grannie get strip searched?  Wanding, yeah.  Nevah heard of a strip search.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/30/2009 5:41:04 PM)

You know, I've always felt that the whole world could learn a hell of a lot from the Israelis. Nobody does airline security like the Israelis. Name the one country that every Muslim extremist dreams of wiping off the face of the globe, and then check and see when the last time was that somebody hijacked one of that country's planes (I'll save you the trouble; it was 1968.) Anyway, add  those two data points, and the conclusion to which it'll probably lead you is that they know a thing or two about protecting their airplanes from religious lunatics. Here's a snippet from an article  -

quote:

El Al is renowned for its strict security procedures. It has armed guards at every ticket counter - many of whom are former Israeli soldiers. It also has undercover agents on every plane and armed guards at every ticket counter. Aircrafts' cockpits are protected with double doors.

The difference between the Israeli and the American systems, he explains, is that the Israelis are looking for the terror suspect, while the Americans are looking for weapons. At Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion airport, passengers - in particular non-Israelis - are interrogated at length by highly-trained screeners while plain-clothes security officials watch for suspicious behaviour.

Outside Israel, travellers experience thorough searches of their luggage, including not just repeated X-rays but also swabs to test for explosives and lengthy questioning. But some passengers have reported that these measures are discriminatory and sometimes unpleasant, with Palestinians and their friends subjected to much stricter procedures, including body searches. El Al uses rigorous computerised passenger profiling systems, which apparently looks for anomalies in a traveller's itinerary, finances and personal profile.


Link

Not every method they use would be practical to adopt on a global scale, of course. Part of the reason they do such a good job is that they have a very small target to defend. They've only got about 40 planes, whereas Delta-Northwest alone has about 750. But nevertheless, there's a lot that other countries can learn from their fundamental approach to screening passengers. For example, one layer of their security process is predicated on the presumption that someone who is about to commit suicide is under enormous psychological stress, and their people are thoroughly trained to spot certain physical indicators of such stress - excessive sweating, irregular breathing, certain eye movements, vocal inflections, even skin tone. Obviously, this isn't infallible, because these physical indicators can also be found in a lot of people who are just scared to death of flying, but the point is, it's one small tool that can get you part of the way toward the goal of safer travel. I really think the FAA would do well to pick their brains a bit.




Sanity -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/30/2009 5:42:53 PM)


Even the most draconian airport security measures could never have stopped Nichols and McVeigh, or even have slowed them down.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Yup.  McVeigh and Nichols looked Middle Eastern or Nigerian.

forgot to add... Israel used to profile young Palestinians.  So they started sending women to be suicide bombers. 

When did a grannie get strip searched?  Wanding, yeah.  Nevah heard of a strip search.





vincentML -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/31/2009 6:36:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

I'm pretty sure my thoughts won't be popular but..... seems to me you already are safe. More people in the US in the last decade died of chocking to death than terrorism, many more were hit by lightning. Why can't Americans 'man up' and have a little of the same courage their soldiers have and in doing so defeat terrorism right there? If everyone accepts that there is a real but very very small chance of being hurt by these terrorists and decide to do things accepting that risk or not do things because of the risk then they are no longer terrorized. The people doing these things can then clearly be seen for who they are, violent criminals and the rest of us can go on with our lives.

Just a point but they aren't even very good violent criminals... US street gangs have killed a lot more people than they have in the last decade and the Mexican drug wars have killed more in one year than they have in the last 10 years. Put this all in perspective and stop giving away your rights and freedoms for nothing more than to 'feel' safer. Nothing makes you safe, we all are gonna die someday anyway, and terrorism is way way down on the probable causes. Worry about driving and/or going to a hospital if you want to worry about lethal things.


You make some excellent points. However, 9/11 was so dramatic and jolting, and the news coverage so extensive, I doubt we would ever be able to achieve a calm and rational demeanor. You think differently when you are 30,000 feet in the air anymore.

Pahunkboy, I don't understand the relevence of your message.

Aneirin, sixteen agencies are under the umbrella of one super agency to whom they are supposed to submit data so the "dots can be connected." Guess not.




LadyEllen -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/31/2009 9:32:50 AM)

What fun. I can barely wait for the opportunity to sue.

Right now, I pass through airport security no problem whatever. The psychological distress and breach of my human rights when, following such a scan, I am pulled out of line for a strip search should be most lucrative.

E




tazzygirl -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/31/2009 9:45:33 AM)

Why would you be strip searched?




mnottertail -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/31/2009 9:46:45 AM)

take your fucking clothes off and I will show you.

Ron




tazzygirl -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/31/2009 9:57:43 AM)

~grins

promises promises Master!




vincentML -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/31/2009 12:18:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What fun. I can barely wait for the opportunity to sue.

Right now, I pass through airport security no problem whatever. The psychological distress and breach of my human rights when, following such a scan, I am pulled out of line for a strip search should be most lucrative.

E


Who would you sue, Ellen? The United States Govt has Sovereign Immunity from civil law suits. They can do us and all we can do is bitch or bring a Constitutional Case. No money in that I don't think.




Aneirin -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (12/31/2009 12:27:37 PM)

The bottom line with all this is, if we want to travel by air, we will do as we are told, and if you notice at airports, when you are told to do something, it is always because of security and now health and safety reasons, the latter being the new cover all to make people do as they are told. Question the security reason, or even the health and safety reason, and you are instantly marked as a trouble maker and there treated as a criminal. We are effectively being trained by reasons and there those that come up with the reasons which has in some cases turned out to be no more than an easier life for the implementer of the reason.




LadyEllen -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/2/2010 8:20:29 PM)

I would be suing the CAA, the owners of the airport, the operators of the security service (almost certainly a subcontractor) and anyone else I can identify as being complicit in discriminating against me and breaching my human rights.

There are pluses and minuses to my situation. The minuses include that no one in their right mind would ever employ me (which is why I own my own business), the pluses include ready grounds for lawsuits if anyone so much as looks at me in a way I dont like - which is also why no one would ever employ me.

E




thornhappy -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/3/2010 8:11:12 PM)

Yup.  That was my point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Even the most draconian airport security measures could never have stopped Nichols and McVeigh, or even have slowed them down.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Yup.  McVeigh and Nichols looked Middle Eastern or Nigerian.

forgot to add... Israel used to profile young Palestinians.  So they started sending women to be suicide bombers. 

When did a grannie get strip searched?  Wanding, yeah.  Nevah heard of a strip search.






Sanity -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/3/2010 8:22:08 PM)


Well then, if the Nichols' and McVeighs of this world aren't coming over on airplanes we don't need to bother screening for them, do we. We can focus on screening for what the terrorists who have been coming over on airplanes usually look like, along with things such as they commonly use one way tickets and they carry no baggage for a trip half way around the world.

The frequent common denominators.

Oh, but that would make too much sense, we have to bend over backwards and stuff our heads up our asses to prove how nice and good and decent we are. Randomly target elderly nuns and quadriplegics for pat downs, that sort of thing.

And tell me, how many Nichols' and McVeigh's have we seen... you can name how many on the entire planet. Two?


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Yup.  That was my point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Even the most draconian airport security measures could never have stopped Nichols and McVeigh, or even have slowed them down.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Yup.  McVeigh and Nichols looked Middle Eastern or Nigerian.

forgot to add... Israel used to profile young Palestinians.  So they started sending women to be suicide bombers. 

When did a grannie get strip searched?  Wanding, yeah.  Nevah heard of a strip search.







thornhappy -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/3/2010 9:11:53 PM)

Have you considered the Troubles in Northern Ireland?  How about ETA in the Basque country?  Various bombings committed by Aryans/Neo-Nazis, etc.?  The bombings in Bali?

They may not have bombed in the scale of OKC, or WTC1 and 1, but these are all terrorist acts.  Who's to say that they couldn't bomb planes?




Sanity -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/4/2010 3:41:42 AM)


They're not focused on attacking Americans (like al-Qaeda is), neither do they go through airport security, which this thread is about airport security.








Mercnbeth -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/4/2010 6:25:16 AM)

~ Fast Reply ~


Profiling or Pragmatism?

The Transportation Security Administration said "every individual flying into the U.S. from anywhere in the world traveling from or through nations that are state sponsors of terrorism or other countries of interest will be required to go through enhanced screening.

"The 14 countries on the list include Cuba, Iran, Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan, Algeria, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Yemen, a top official said.Every passenger holding a passport from these countries, or flying through these countries en route to the United States, will undergo enhanced scrutiny, the official said.






MzMia -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/4/2010 8:44:27 PM)

Rather than start a new thread {though I was tempted}, I have not seen anyone mention the incident at
the New Jersey airport.
It appears thousands of people were delayed up to 6 hours, because of a security breach, and had to be rescreened.
[8|]
Thousands rescreened at Newark airport - CNN.com

 I used to enjoy flying, and I still don't mind it.
Just take plenty to read and plan on possibly being in the airport a few hours going and coming, and you will be fine.




popeye1250 -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/5/2010 1:37:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

I'm pretty sure my thoughts won't be popular but..... seems to me you already are safe. More people in the US in the last decade died of chocking to death than terrorism, many more were hit by lightning. Why can't Americans 'man up' and have a little of the same courage their soldiers have and in doing so defeat terrorism right there? If everyone accepts that there is a real but very very small chance of being hurt by these terrorists and decide to do things accepting that risk or not do things because of the risk then they are no longer terrorized. The people doing these things can then clearly be seen for who they are, violent criminals and the rest of us can go on with our lives.

Just a point but they aren't even very good violent criminals... US street gangs have killed a lot more people than they have in the last decade and the Mexican drug wars have killed more in one year than they have in the last 10 years. Put this all in perspective and stop giving away your rights and freedoms for nothing more than to 'feel' safer. Nothing makes you safe, we all are gonna die someday anyway, and terrorism is way way down on the probable causes. Worry about driving and/or going to a hospital if you want to worry about lethal things.


You make some excellent points. However, 9/11 was so dramatic and jolting, and the news coverage so extensive, I doubt we would ever be able to achieve a calm and rational demeanor. You think differently when you are 30,000 feet in the air anymore.

Pahunkboy, I don't understand the relevence of your message.

Aneirin, sixteen agencies are under the umbrella of one super agency to whom they are supposed to submit data so the "dots can be connected." Guess not.



Vincent, "connect the dots." That's funny!
The "crotch rocket bomber's" FATHER went to the U.S. embassey and TOLD them that his son was a terrorist!
They had it dropped into their fucking laps and they couldn't "connect the dots!"
Again as I've said many times before we have the *wrong type of people* working in our govt.
And now Obama tells us about the crotch bomber terrorist and the "crushing poverty" in Yemen! Ah,... the crotch bomber was from Nigeria and from a very prominant family if that's possable in a rat bag country like Nigeria, not from Yemen!
And they've been sending gtmo prisoners to Yemen yet Obama says he wants to give Yemen all the "resources" neccessary (more "foreign aid?") to fight al qeada! So, Israel bombs palestine and the U.S. Taxpayers have to pony up "$100M" last year to "rebuild it!"
The UK and us close our embasseys in Yemen because of al qeada terrorists and Obama wants to give Yemen all kinds of our money?
Obama has been contradicting himself a lot lately.
Does anyone know just how many of the gtmo prisoners are, "back on the team" again? Oh! Perhaps Secretary Napolitano has the exact figures!
And the crotch rocket bomber tries to blow up an airliner with a few hundred people on it which is an act of war in and of itself and Obama wants to give the guy a "trial?" You know, if I was a "liberal" that would piss me off!
This is insanity! It kind of makes one wish for "the good ole Bush days!" God I never thought I'd say something like that!




vincentML -> RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! (1/5/2010 10:42:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


Vincent, "connect the dots." That's funny!
The "crotch rocket bomber's" FATHER went to the U.S. embassey and TOLD them that his son was a terrorist!
They had it dropped into their fucking laps and they couldn't "connect the dots!"
Again as I've said many times before we have the *wrong type of people* working in our govt.
And now Obama tells us about the crotch bomber terrorist and the "crushing poverty" in Yemen! Ah,... the crotch bomber was from Nigeria and from a very prominant family if that's possable in a rat bag country like Nigeria, not from Yemen!
And they've been sending gtmo prisoners to Yemen yet Obama says he wants to give Yemen all the "resources" neccessary (more "foreign aid?") to fight al qeada! So, Israel bombs palestine and the U.S. Taxpayers have to pony up "$100M" last year to "rebuild it!"
The UK and us close our embasseys in Yemen because of al qeada terrorists and Obama wants to give Yemen all kinds of our money?
Obama has been contradicting himself a lot lately.
Does anyone know just how many of the gtmo prisoners are, "back on the team" again? Oh! Perhaps Secretary Napolitano has the exact figures!
And the crotch rocket bomber tries to blow up an airliner with a few hundred people on it which is an act of war in and of itself and Obama wants to give the guy a "trial?" You know, if I was a "liberal" that would piss me off!
This is insanity! It kind of makes one wish for "the good ole Bush days!" God I never thought I'd say something like that!


Popeye, I agree it was a pretty blatant security failure and "connect the dots" is a gross understatement in this case. I was referring to the realignment of the security apartchniks when I used it. I understand there are still turf wars going on between agencies. The Washington folk are most concerned with cya and their next promotion.

One point of disagreement..... hundreds of the Gitmo prisoners were released by the Bushies. From what i have read the process of identifying "enemy combatants" to be captured sometimes involved reward money and neighbor turning in neighbor to local authorities who then turned the (sometimes falsely) accused over to CIA or Sp Ops to be whisked away. Evidently, the Bushies did not have enough on these detainees to bring them to trial even in Military jurisdiction, and let them go before the new Administration came in to examine the files.

These individuals were not all "captured on the battlefield." That is pure bullshit. From start to finish the whole concepts stinks imo. Then to add insult to injury we have those who say well Gitmo is really quite a lovely concentration camp; you should be content that we rescued you from your rat hole of a poverty stricken nation, took you away from your family and loved ones, and gave you the best food and health care you have ever had in exchange for six or seven years of your Freedom. Shit!




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