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Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 12:53:47 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

It's going to take years to undo all this and it's going to cost a lot of money and the people who are going to pay that money are you and me and anyone else who earns a living or does something productive.

That's it. That's all there is to it. You're not getting out of it unless you want to leave the country and abandon your citizenship.



When I was looking up some stuff in regards to a different post I came across this:



More US wealthy opt to surrender their citizenship

As offshore havens comply with transparency demands, a growing number of ultra-wealthy Americans are handing back their passports. Private client lawyers and relocation specialists are reporting a surge in wealthy Americans living abroad who are prepared to give up their citizenship to avoid the scrutiny of US tax authorities.

Although such a move means they have to pay an exit tax, lawyers say this is a price people have become more willing to pay this year, now the fall in asset values has reduced the size of the imposition.

Jay Krause, a partner at private-client specialist law firm Withers, said: “The number of inquiries from US citizens wanting to expatriate from their citizenship has increased rapidly in the last year.”


This is part of why you cannot just "soak the rich". They're smarter and better connected than the people trying to "soak" them. They leave. They move their money somewhere else. They get connections and write exemptions for themselves into the tax code.

Looks at it this way. During the Russian Revolution, Lenin and his followers killed the rich and the nobility. They still didn't get their money. Wealth poured out of Russia and settled all across Europe and the United States along with the surviving ex patriate Russian aristocracy. Lenin and the Communist government tried unsuccessfully for years to get it back. Lenin's government was desperate for any sort of currency or cash for a long time.

The rich. You can kill them, but you can't get their money.

[Edited to clean up rogue tags.]

< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 12/29/2009 12:57:14 PM >

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 1:43:05 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Well they're not investing their money in America in the first place, so why should anybody give a fuck about them leaving?

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 1:45:47 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		They are taking our bailout money as well. That is money they fucked me out of unfairly, I saw that coming..........

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 1:51:30 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Oh, bankers then.
Well, they've been doing that for years in any case. It's strange how the right only starts to complain if there's a democrat in the White House. They were happy enough when Bush was throwing money at these guys with both hands.

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 2:02:45 PM   
Fellow


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quote:

During the Russian Revolution, Lenin and his followers killed the rich and the nobility. They still didn't get their money. Wealth poured out of Russia and settled all across Europe and the United States along with the surviving ex patriate Russian aristocracy. Lenin and the Communist government tried unsuccessfully for years to get it back. Lenin's government was desperate for any sort of currency or cash for a long time.


I do not believe It is really true. Their wealth was mostly nationalized. Very small amount  left Russia. Rich people do not keep their wealth in cash, it is mostly in hard assets like factories, farms and properties. Of course Lenin's government was desperate for cash as there was nobody left to run the economy.

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 2:03:29 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Boy! And this "Global Economy" just keeps getting better and better doesn't it!
Ever notice that it's *always* the wealthy and their sock puppets in govt who are the ones telling "the masses" that?

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 2:17:01 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Boy! And this "Global Economy" just keeps getting better and better doesn't it!
Ever notice that it's *always* the wealthy and their sock puppets in govt who are the ones telling "the masses" that?

You are Naomi Klein, and I claim my five pounds.

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 2:23:05 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Well, they've been doing that for years in any case. It's strange how the right only starts to complain if there's a democrat in the White House. They were happy enough when Bush was throwing money at these guys with both hands.


Ah, but Moonhead, even stipulating to "Bush was throwing money at these guys with both hands"; the relocation is driven by the current Administration philosophy of more regulation and the promise of more taxation. As pointed to by this quote from the OP

Private client lawyers and relocation specialists are reporting a surge in wealthy Americans living abroad who are prepared to give up their citizenship to avoid the scrutiny of US tax authorities.

Too much liability on the revenue side necessary for funding the ongoing and promised new entitlements and the burgeoning bureaucracy that comes along with those entitlements. 'CUTS' is the only four letter word never spoken in Congress. Cuts has never been associated with government programs and not even whispered when it comes to government workers or their benefits. Meanwhile in the private sector income is down, meaning tax revenue is down, and in lieu of working to feed that special interest serving bureaucratic monster; leaving looks mighty good.

Honestly, I'm kinda upset to see this getting mentioned. Knowing that I'm not the only one to come to this conclusion I didn't think so many would be considering the same. However, you can't change the numbers and people running businesses deal with them every day. The fact that this story made the news speaks to the dire state of the economy. When your business mission statement is to reward failures with money and other benefits at the expense of those succeeding - which group, having the ability to do so, do you think will leave and which will remain? That pragmatic results it true whether you are a business or a government.

If you can, it's time to 'cash in the chips'. I am. (Please try and hold back the applause!)

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/29/2009 2:25:30 PM >

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 2:25:23 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		What this shows is that the wealthy hold to neither allegiance nor loyalty.

Which make them traitors whose assets are forfeit to the state.

Which is quite handy really, considering they only have assets at all because the peasantry propped up their portfolios with bail outs.

E






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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 2:29:00 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Too much liability on the revenue side necessary for funding the ongoing and promised new entitlements and the burgeoning bureaucracy that comes along with those entitlements. 'CUTS' is the only four letter word never spoken in Congress. Cuts has never been associated with government programs and not even whispered when it comes to government workers or their benefits.

carter doesn't count then? He made some pretty radical cuts to the government before you chased him out of office. It took most of Reagan's first term to get it fattened back up again, iirc.

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 2:38:24 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

considering they only have assets at all because the peasantry propped up their portfolios with bail outs.


But the entire world economy would have collapsed if they didn't get bailed out and propped up! It benefited the "peasantry", as you call them, to do so.

At least that's what we were told by this Administration, and pointed out as fact by many who supported it on these threads, when they allocating over $700 Billion of tax money to those failures last February.

Are you really amazed that the public sector lawyers in Washington weren't as smart as the private sector lawyers working for the industries, companies, and individuals benefiting by the bail out?

However your premise is fundamentally wrong. They have assets because the "peasantry" believed, and apparently still believes, that they have representation in Washington. Their representatives, many of whom still get unconditional support, enabled them to benefit.

To your other point, there is no loyalty being allocated to them by the people they elected. Hasn't been for a long time. Similar to 'respect' and 'trust' when 'loyalty' is one sided it is worthless to consider in any decision.

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 3:00:18 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

carter doesn't count then? He made some pretty radical cuts to the government before you chased him out of office. It took most of Reagan's first term to get it fattened back up again, iirc.
These aren't the '70s and my point of reference considered only the past 25 years. Carter gets all the credit due for cutting the speed limit. He also cut out the Shah from Iran. He cut the thermostat down in the White house to 68 and wore a sweater. He cut the Olympic athletes out of competing in Moscow.

However I think you are referring to the little known, and rarely referenced fact that Carter actually cut business tax to try and stimulate the economy. However - are you really inferring that the current Administration and Congress would consider such a move now?

Carter's attempt to cut bureaucracy by instituting his Georgia 'zero-based' budgeting program was never attempted by him as President that I recall. Although a good idea - it sure won't happen now. As it see it, the 'bi-partisan' McCain/Feingold 'reformed' and insured all future elections would be won by special interest employees. That makes it impossible for any meaningful cuts to occur.

The idea of every bureaucrat starting off the year with a 'zero-budget' having to argue their legitimacy would be a panacea to solve many of the existing economic problems. However the concept of 'pork spending' is now so entrenched in Washington politics, exempting an entire State from contributing their share of tax as is the case in the Senate version of the Health Care Bill, doesn't raise an eyebrow and is considered standard political practice. It's in that environment you think a 'Carter zero-based' budget philosophy will work now and generate cuts?

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 3:09:50 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

carter doesn't count then? He made some pretty radical cuts to the government before you chased him out of office. It took most of Reagan's first term to get it fattened back up again, iirc.
These aren't the '70s and my point of reference considered only the past 25 years. Carter gets all the credit due for cutting the speed limit. He also cut out the Shah from Iran. He cut the thermostat down in the White house to 68 and wore a sweater. He cut the Olympic athletes out of competing in Moscow.

However I think you are referring to the little known, and rarely referenced fact that Carter actually cut business tax to try and stimulate the economy. However - are you really inferring that the current Administration and Congress would consider such a move now?

Carter's attempt to cut bureaucracy by instituting his Georgia 'zero-based' budgeting program was never attempted by him as President that I recall. Although a good idea - it sure won't happen now. As it see it, the 'bi-partisan' McCain/Feingold 'reformed' and insured all future elections would be won by special interest employees. That makes it impossible for any meaningful cuts to occur.

The idea of every bureaucrat starting off the year with a 'zero-budget' having to argue their legitimacy would be a panacea to solve many of the existing economic problems. However the concept of 'pork spending' is now so entrenched in Washington politics, exempting an entire State from contributing their share of tax as is the case in the Senate version of the Health Care Bill, doesn't raise an eyebrow and is considered standard political practice. It's in that environment you think a 'Carter zero-based' budget philosophy will work now and generate cuts?

Not at all. I was just taking issue with your incorrect statement that no such attempt had ever been made.

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 3:19:05 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		This brings up an interesting question: the exodus of the rich mans that America may not be the best place to KEEP wealth.  The questyon is, is it the best place to MAKE wealth?

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 3:20:08 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Not at all. I was just taking issue with your incorrect statement that no such attempt had ever been made.

Moonhead - Maybe you misread the posts. The statement I made; "'CUTS' is the only four letter word never spoken in Congress" was pointed to the current state of affairs in Washington.

Carter made no attempt to cut the bureaucracy in Washington during his tenure as President to my knowledge. The principle behind his 'zero based budget' was never implemented nationally to my knowledge. However if you want to revisit the 70s and point to some specific, significant cuts in Washington bureaucracy implemented under President Carter I'd be interested in learning of them from an academic standpoint.

Edited to Add:
quote:

before you chased him out of office
I've taken on the blame and responsibility for many things over my life, but being 20 when he was elected, and 24 when he lost; I really can't take take the honor of chasing Carter our of office. No - I'd say his Administration's results or lack of same, along with his experience lacking inept management skills, leadership, disjointed programs, and his image of rhetoric over actions doomed him.

Getting a profound sense of Déjà vu, aren't you?

Neglected to address the acquisation of me chasing Carter out of office previously - sorry!

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/29/2009 3:29:48 PM >

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 3:20:52 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Who cares? Let them leave. They don't pay any taxes anyway. I don't mean that literally, I mean they don't pay enough taxes and if they don't want to pay their fair share, they can leave, I don't care.

Other countries make you pay taxes based on your citizenship. So if you want to leave the country and you still want to own properties in that country you are still a citizen and you still pay taxes on your world income. So you can run but you can't hide. Tax laws will be amended so if you don't want to pay taxes you're going to have to give up all your memberships in clubs or associations or professional associations in other words everything. Do that and you will not pay taxes. Sell everything, divest yourself of everything and move.

Warren Buffett can take his insider trading ass somewhere else. His secretary pays taxes at a higher rate than him, that's bullshit!

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 3:25:10 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

This brings up an interesting question: the exodus of the rich mans that America may not be the best place to KEEP wealth.  The questyon is, is it the best place to MAKE wealth?

You can't make wealth. That's the big problem with fiscal systems, it's only possible to move money around instead of inventing it from scratch.

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 3:40:16 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
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Status: offline 		I thought this was an interesting point:

"Krause said many people looking to give up US citizenship are accidental Americans. These are either those born in America when their non-citizen parents might have been living there for a short period, or the offspring of an American parent living abroad. Both categories qualify automatically for US citizenship.They may not take up a US passport, but they will still be subject to US taxes unless they expatriate. “More and more accidental Americans are looking at the fall in asset prices in the last year and taking up the option to expatriate,” said Krause."

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 3:58:35 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		That is an interesting point. Those are the guys like Obama the right want out of the country anyway, aren't they?

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RE: Wealthy leaving the United States - 12/29/2009 4:18:20 PM   
Sanity


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Thats a poorly thought out statement, as wealth is obviously mined, grown,  manufactured, and so on.

If wealth couldn't be made then wealth would not exist.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
You can't make wealth. That's the big problem with fiscal systems, it's only possible to move money around instead of inventing it from scratch.


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