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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: sexyred1

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ORIGINAL: Aynne88

That's what sales is, delivering the goods better than the next guy. Closing the deal.  It's fucking hard work. Glengarry Glen Ross, best movie ever on the ruthlessness of sales. It ain't Mary Kay we're talking about. Add to that this is Maine and it's very much a male dominated business, well....I earn my money.

Not to derail, but you are so right; Glengarry Glen Ross is the ultimate sales movie. I am in ruthless sales myself (NYC media biz) and believe me, you use everything at your disposal to sell in such a competitive market. I am always told that women are better at sales, but I have seen evidence that even with superior skill, some women do not get paid as much as their male counterparts, even in these supposedly enlightened times.

I love Glengarry.....I used to sell cars in california....anyone seen the movie used cars? Me = Rudy Russo and my boss was Jack Worden in the powder blue suit

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I get the impression that a person is not considered sufficiently well-versed in the Gorean lifestyle to pass judgment until that judgment is "the Gorean lifestyle is TEH AWESOME!"

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I don't need to became an expert on Gor to realize it's not something that works for me.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
This attitude of "tear off the blinds of ignorance and see the way to a better life!"... well, it's a bit too evangelical for my tastes.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne

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ORIGINAL: Kimveri
Animus is not even a Gorean, let alone the author of the whole series, but go ahead, get medical information from the busdriver who drives past the hospital every day......

From my observation, Animus is an intelligent poster who has taken the time to learn more about Goreans than I care to.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
His statement was consistent with what I've read Goreans writing about their deal, and (from my memory) it stood uncontensted in a long thread where people were actively correcting what they considered misimpressions.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
Instead of challenging his credentials to speak, could you perhaps explain why the statement is incorrect? (Keeping in mind that I'm working from memory here and what is important is the statement about the Enlightenment, not who wrote it).

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
Or is ad hominem argument a founding principle of Gor?

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
There it is again, the religious undertones. Terrible shame John Norman couldn't get in touch with his inner L. Ron Hubbard and formalize this for you. First... there was the WORD.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I don't know where talk of excuses and victim mentalities came from. I am responsible for my knowledge and lack thereof. I have enough information to know that the Gorean lifestyle neither appeals to or threatens me.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne

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ORIGINAL: Kimveri
Do it....or don't....but you'll get nothing but contempt from me if you rely on others instead of coming here with the actual "blood" of your own kill to discuss.

I'll set aside my excitement caused by talk of blood and kills for a moment to point out how silly this is. You've got your one true path and you won't respect those who don't walk it?

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
You have your own board for people who are actively living the Gorean lifestyle. Feel free to spread your contempt for idle observers, but it just looks silly on a general discussion board.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
Now, back to my excitement regarding blood and kills. Not choosing a Gorean lifestyle doesn't mean that I disagree with absolutely every tenet or value espoused. And I think Goreans tend to come across as vainglorious when they assume as much.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
For the record, if you and yours come for my freedom, I'll "slaughter" you all with a clean conscience.

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Using fast reply...

I've been thinking a lot about this topic since I first read it yesterday and haven't been able to get back to it until this morning. My mind bouncing all around.

First was brought up a thread awhile back, on feminism, that got completely out of hand and made several people look absolutely horrid. The depths sunk to to try and cop a 'win' were revolting. It created a lasting impression in my mind of two people particularly that will forever be a negative. One person, that while apparently intelligent, and per her age should be more mature, ended up appearing mentally unstable. The other, simply childish, petty, and vastly immature. But that is their legacy, not mine and not one I will allow myself to identify with.......simply because I share their gender.

Two thoughts come to mind when such vitrol is seen/heard. Insecurity and fear of something not known or not understood, breeds hatred. It doesn't matter what the unknown or misunderstood is......race, gender, political leaning, whatever......the insecure human instinct is to fight or flee. We hate to flee so we stand and fight......human nature. How we fight, is determined by many thing, but on here........we use words. All too often allowing our emotions to take control and show ourselves in our worst light, defeating our purpose. We only end up alienating one another further. Lose lose situation.

There is a male I know of, that is apparently quite happy in service to a mistress that believes strongly in female supremacy. Yet, I also know that he has, quite violently, topped submissive women. While he has labeled himself dominant/switch, what I see is a man that is so impassioned about how he views women, he cannot wrap his mind around the existence of submissive women. His inability to accept their life path as being beautiful and right for them, is expressed in violent sadism towards them. I cannot imagine the torturous things going on in his head over all of that nor how his owner would allow it, if indeed she still does, but it is to me, the perfect example of trying to destroy what we do not understand therefor fear.
Another thought, something I have been considering lately in my own life. What we focus on, we give energy and power.

I said I do not see misogyny, because it is a negative in my mind. Something I somehow, without conscious thought, chose to avoid giving any power. So, it ceases to exist in my world. I have no conscious memory of ANYone ever treating me in a way that would lead me to believe they dislike me because of my gender. None.

I realize that the activists in the world will see what I am saying as refusing to acknowledge it exists. I understand that and to them and how they think and deal with the world, it is correct. It is simply not correct for me and how I deal with the world.

I prefer activism by example. I behave in a manner that creates an energy for what I WANT to see, therefor that is what I see.
In a bigger picture, I strive to be a person that my words and more importantly, actions, are consistent and respected. To be a leader in some small way but in a way that matters. Less so by strident words and focus on the negative but instead my personal behaviour, my actions, where I focus MY energy. It has been proven over and over throughout time, where energy is focused, whatever that energy is focused on, flourishes.

I don't want grow hate and fear.

There are many many lifestyles, differences, etc........that I know are not for me. Things I do not want in My life. Yet, for some, they are positive choices or even moreso, life paths. Just because I know without doubt they are not for me, because I do not understand all of their nuances, or how someone can live that way happily, does not give me license to deem it wrong for someone else. It doesn't make sense for me to focus MY energy on trying to demean someone else's truth.

I still struggle with all of this, especially when it comes to religioun and politics...........but I keep trying.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne

Objectivism is profoundly foolish and it seemed unfair to saddle the lifestyle with more tendentious fiction.

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Aswad it is nice to see you back.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne

Approaching it as a cultural difference would emphasize that the differences are the result of a human construct, not innate.

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ORIGINAL: lally2


[
hi,

im a big believer in projecting positivity and proaction, but its taken me a time to have the confidence to do so. prior to reaching the reasonably confident person i am now i was really just a fairly shy, unnassuming little soul.

these days i dont notice mysogeny because i completely revile it and will not give it space in my brain. but when i was a shy person i got picked on by those pesonality types left right and freakin' center.

for me misogyny comes in different ways, from idiots making clicking noises at you as you walk past, whistling at you, honking their horn, to the other end of being bullies who put women down at best and are violent towards them at worst.

i agree with you. attitude projects and they dont feature in our lives because they know we could tear their little world to shreds and basically they could not handle that. so, they only pick on the pickable.

that is why the Ds and Ms nursery slopes are rotten with bullies and domineering pedantics.

just my findings

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ORIGINAL: Kimveri

I've obviously been unclear. ALL I'm saying is....if you must make a general summary statement about a thing, at least do the personal work to check & confirm the sources you rely upon. IF you elect to rely on fringe sources with little or no actual study/knowledge under their belt, don't be surprised when those who HAVE done their homewrok inform you that you're mistaken.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I don't need to became an expert on Gor to realize it's not something that works for me.

No, you don't....but you MAY want to learn enough to discern the difference between the experts & those who have little more than a passing interest. At least, if you're going to make blanket statements in public fora...

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
This attitude of "tear off the blinds of ignorance and see the way to a better life!"... well, it's a bit too evangelical for my tastes.

Hehe...good point. I do get a bit dramatic, I suppose. Thanks for pointing it out. 

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
His statement was consistent with what I've read Goreans writing about their deal, and (from my memory) it stood uncontensted in a long thread where people were actively correcting what they considered misimpressions.

I do not recall the specific passage, but if you can give me a tad more to go on, I'll hunt it down & do my best to delve deeper. Sometimes a statement goes uncontested because there are larger issues at hand, not because it's something we all agree with.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
Instead of challenging his credentials to speak, could you perhaps explain why the statement is incorrect? (Keeping in mind that I'm working from memory here and what is important is the statement about the Enlightenment, not who wrote it).

First, I did not challenge Animus' credentials to speak. I questioned your citing him as a pivotal source for Gorean information. As I said above, if you can help me narrow the search a bit, I'll gladly address your question. I think it'd be interesting! :-D

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
Or is ad hominem argument a founding principle of Gor?

Ok, I understand that tone & inflection are absent, but I'm having real trouble seeing where you got the impression that I am making personal insults against anyone here. I do not view sharing the fact that Animus has not, to my knowledge, ever declared himself "a Gorean" as in ANY way an insult. It's not an admission of inferiority to NOT be Gorean, ffs! Perhaps a re-reading might be in order before making accusations?

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne

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ORIGINAL: Kimveri
Do it....or don't....but you'll get nothing but contempt from me if you rely on others instead of coming here with the actual "blood" of your own kill to discuss.

I'll set aside my excitement caused by talk of blood and kills for a moment to point out how silly this is. You've got your one true path and you won't respect those who don't walk it?

Ohhh, no no! I didn't mean it that way at all! Let me clarify.

In an open discussion forum, when someone makes a sweeping statement on a thing I expect them to have arrived at that conclusion due to the results of their own study. When I find that the remark is based solely on the opinions of third-parties, & especially when those third parties are not even adherents to the matter at hand (i.e. Gor)....well....then I have little but contempt for their statement. It's not the person I regard thusly, it's the stance they've taken in the discussion.

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I think perhaps you've intentionally misunderstood me, Lucienne...but I hold out hope that I'm wrong on that count.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

Princeton gives various definitions of the term "culture," with the common theme of the applicable ones being the collection of attitudes, behaviors, values, norms and such that a given social group adheres to at a point in time. Clearly, attitudes, behaviors, values and norms do differ appreciably between genders, partially as a construct, partially as an innate property of gender. As such, I would say that denotatively, the correct term is "culture."

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ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Lucienne,

An incorrect blanket statement was made regarding misogyny & Goreans. YOU decided to defend it. In doing so you cited Animus. I continue to say that 1) the generalization is incorrect & 2) your sources are lacking.

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To say that Goreans distinguish themselves in the misogyny department is not only untrue in my observation, it's almost too narrow of a point.

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As for the validity of the specific statement you cited, when I have the time I'll search it, formulate a post, & open a damn thread....since it's totally NOT about misogyny.....is it?

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ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
Gor was based on very real Earth cultures; the novels simply presume that the Enlightenment never happened, that instead of egalitarianism being seen as a good, hierarchy and inequality were taken as the norm.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
You've got your one true path and you won't respect those who don't walk it?

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"There is no single humanity, no single shirt, no correct pair of shoes, no uniform, even a gray one, that will fit all men. There are a thousand humanities possible. He who denies this sees only his own horizons. He who disagrees is the denier of difference, and the murderer of better futures." ~pg31Savages

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I offered my personal example of learning about and disagreeing with Gorean stuff and asked -- is this enough to silence your plaintive mews of injustice? More diplomatically than that, of course.

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ORIGINAL: Kimveri
If this is your sole reason for concluding that Goreans are 1) not worth sincere discussion ...or 2) all misogynists then I fail to see how further exchanges will be beneficial. I personally don't see the connection.

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I offered my personal example of learning about and disagreeing with Gorean stuff and asked -- is this enough to silence your plaintive mews of injustice? More diplomatically than that, of course.

Ahh, so my instinct was right -- there really was NO honest interest in a discussion, just more nasty little indirect sniping at a favorite target.

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I'm just not clear on why it's something you seem proud of...wrapping condescension in 'diplomacy' just to see someone take the bait seems a rather childish thing to take joy in, don't ya think....something almost....unreasonably hateful...
~K