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The evolution of the USA ? - 12/30/2009 5:38:43 PM   
Aneirin


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The United States of America, it has risen from a new world across the sea to a place of mass immigration and conquest, it has risen to become a world industrial powerhouse and  a military might to be reckoned with, it has become the land of hope for the oppressed and disenfranchised, its sense of right knew no bounds.  The USA has influenced the world over, but, the USA is only just over 230 years old.

Has the USA evolved too fast ?

If in your thoughts it has evolved too fast, is the present decline just an indication of natural decay, based upon the theory that a light that burns twice as bright burns out faster. ( based upon bog standard tungsten filament in argon inert gas glass bulbs, just in case some smart ass argues about the advances in incandescent bulb technology )

Will the decline be good for the USA, or is the position of world leader in most things more important ?




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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/30/2009 7:29:09 PM   
starshineowned


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Greetings..

Sometimes I think in our giddiness and care free wills abundant that we did become the jackrabbit and probably in many instances conversations would go like: Look Look ..See what I did?
I See it. What does it do?
Hell if I know but isn't it cool? (and trots off to the next project in mid sentence.) Maybe all the ADHD people landed here?

Would it hurt us to be pushed back a few pegs? No I don't think so. It might even give us the medication we seem to need as a whole, and gain a actual direction which seems to have been lost many moons ago.

Being world leader? I personally as an American have never liked this title nor do I like it being bestowed upon us. Share in lending thought to better ways and days for all? Sure but I personally wish we'd withdraw governmental wise with feeling some wierd need to raise our hands first. I have not spoken to the majority of Americans but of the ones I have discussed such issues with over my years..the sentiment was pretty much the same as far as the world leader crap.

starshine

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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/30/2009 7:58:58 PM   
pahunkboy


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Dare I say,  the USA is too big to fail.

one answere is to look at how the foundations  got us into wars.

At the same time the outsource mode did not happen just this week.   It builds since 1968.

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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/30/2009 8:41:43 PM   
Aileen1968


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God Bless America

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 12/30/2009 8:45:41 PM >


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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/30/2009 9:39:46 PM   
popeye1250


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Aneirin, I never liked that "world leader" crap. I don't know where it came from but as one American over here it's time to shitcan it.
As for immigration it is simply not needed anymore. We could still do some but very little, say 25-50,000 a year and only professionals that are needed.
And we need to downsize our military and start minding our own business. It is *tremendously* expensive to field a military like we have. We simply can't afford it anymore.
I read articles and people in them refer to America as a (or one of the) "rich" country but that's no longer true and those people are usually in foreign countries and they're "looking for something" out of us.
And unless Obama gets us out of those disasterous trade deals the decline that we're in will get worse! Mia's made some great posts about that.
I say we pick out a country that we hate and make them "world leader."
Do you really think the "world" needs a "world leader" anyway? I don't!

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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/30/2009 9:53:29 PM   
submittous


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Too big to fail.... hahahahah tell that to the roman empire

The US has grown large and powerful but not evolved as fast. It has the military and had the economic power to lead but doesn't have the moral position to lead anyone but dictators. Slow to outlaw slavery, slow to give women the right to vote, slower to actually allow blacks to vote, only country to us atomic weapons.... and on and on.

We have this inflated view of our being the good guys that really doesn't hold up to examination. If we continue to be a world power in this century I hope we start to 'evolve' and grow into our power with some actual integrity and less blatant greed.

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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 7:59:05 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

Too big to fail.... hahahahah tell that to the roman empire

The US has grown large and powerful but not evolved as fast. It has the military and had the economic power to lead but doesn't have the moral position to lead anyone but dictators. Slow to outlaw slavery, slow to give women the right to vote, slower to actually allow blacks to vote, only country to us atomic weapons.... and on and on.

We have this inflated view of our being the good guys that really doesn't hold up to examination. If we continue to be a world power in this century I hope we start to 'evolve' and grow into our power with some actual integrity and less blatant greed.


The term is American Exceptionalism. There is a long history of this inflated view. There is some opposition to it as you have written and with which I sympathise. It seems a jingism that leads us into one thoughtless military action after another. Here is a discussion from Wiki. I won't give the site. Anyone interested can google it.

American exceptionalism (def. "exceptionalism") refers to the theory that the United States occupies a special niche among the nations of the world[1] in terms of its national credo, historical evolution, political and religious institutions and unique origins. The first description of the belief is attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville,[2][3] who claimed that the then-50-year-old United States held a special place among nations, because it was a country of immigrants and the first modern democracy.

In 1927 Jay Lovestone, leader of the Communist Party in America, defined American exceptionalism as the increasing strength of American capitalism, a strength which he said prevented Communist revolution.[4] In 1929, Joseph Stalin, unwilling to believe that America was so resistant to revolution, called Lovestone's ideas "the heresy of American exceptionalism."[5] In the 1930s, academicians in the U.S. redefined American exceptionalism as befitting a nation that was to lead the world, with the U.S. to serve the older European societies as an example of a liberated future free from Marxism and socialism.[5] More recently, socialists and other writers have tried to discover or describe this exceptionalism of the U.S. within and outside its borders.[6]

The theory of American exceptionalism has a number of opponents, especially from the Left.[7][8][9][10] They argue that the belief is "self-serving and jingoistic" (see slavery, civil rights and social welfare issues, Western betrayal, and the failure to aid Jews fleeing the Nazis),[1] that it is based on a myth,[11] and that "[t]here is a growing refusal to accept" the idea of exceptionalism both nationally and internationally.[12] See also the section Opposing viewpoints.


I think it is a pretty short sighted and arrogant view of ourselves.

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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 9:02:37 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
based upon the theory that a light that burns twice as bright burns out faster. ( based upon bog standard tungsten filament in argon inert gas glass bulbs, just in case some smart ass argues about the advances in incandescent bulb technology )

The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly, Roy. Look at you: you're the Prodigal Son; you're quite a prize!

Blade Runner


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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 9:16:46 AM   
InvisibleBlack


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- FR -

"God has a special providence for fools, drunkards, and the United States of America."

     - Otto von Bismarck


< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 12/31/2009 9:17:06 AM >


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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 9:24:24 AM   
Sanity


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I disagree, a couple of the reasons why are that we were a nation of free people when most of the rest of the world were ruled by Kings or socialist tyrants of one kind or another, which has lead to great success in many fields which in turn has caused a great many other nations to try to copy our successes.

Also, in the old world a lot of the people lived in relative isolation from the rest of mankind, intermarrying within villages or the same counties. Thats not good, for any species. The fact that we were a melting pot with great genetic diversity gives us as individuals (and therefore as a nation) fantastic advantages, physically, culturally and even (dare I say it) (yes I dare) mentally.

It might not be politically correct, but I believe its true and its nice to have the freedom to say it now before the PC police finally tighten their grip on us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I think it is a pretty short sighted and arrogant view of ourselves.








< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/31/2009 9:30:08 AM >


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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 9:50:14 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Yeah sanity that is exactly how I remember the creation of this diverse country of yours too. When we in the old world were all still conducting acts of incest within our quaint little villages, isolated from the invention of fire, the wheel and cutting tools.






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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 10:08:32 AM   
Sanity


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The truth is often deeply offensive I suppose. Reality can be downright maddening at times...


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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 10:19:49 AM   
mnottertail


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well not the way you tell it, Sanity.

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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 10:35:59 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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It's not the truth because what you've done is like telling the story of little red riding hood without mentioning the fact the wolf ate her at the end. Most nations have dark periods within their history and most people can't admit to them. You seem to be going back a little too far in history to find the last example of injustice.

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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 10:42:55 AM   
Sanity


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Why are you flying off to injustice now, there has always been injustice. The plight of Africans in America or (European slaves in Africa)  has nothing to do with what I posted, absolutely nothing. We've still had freedom, including blacks, and we've still had genetic diversity, especially when view in the proper context of  the way things have been at the same time all over the rest of the world.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

It's not the truth because what you've done is like telling the story of little red riding hood without mentioning the fact the wolf ate her at the end. Most nations have dark periods within their history and most people can't admit to them. You seem to be going back a little too far in history to find the last example of injustice.


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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 10:45:07 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
I disagree, a couple of the reasons why are that we were a nation of free people when most of the rest of the world were ruled by Kings or socialist tyrants of one kind or another, which has lead to great success in many fields which in turn has caused a great many other nations to try to copy our successes.

Also, in the old world a lot of the people lived in relative isolation from the rest of mankind, intermarrying within villages or the same counties. Thats not good, for any species. The fact that we were a melting pot with great genetic diversity gives us as individuals (and therefore as a nation) fantastic advantages, physically, culturally and even (dare I say it) (yes I dare) mentally.

It might not be politically correct, but I believe its true and its nice to have the freedom to say it now before the PC police finally tighten their grip on us.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the slave trade largely end in Europe before the US also do we not in ye old world have genetic diversity? A lot of Europe has not been ruled by the monarchy for quite some time so you see I'm using this statement to decide what period of European history you are competing with?


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/31/2009 10:50:57 AM >


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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 10:48:12 AM   
Sanity


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You seem to think I'm arguing that we are pure and that we've always been pure, and I'm not. I'm talking about our physical and mental strength and our ability to invent and move around and create wealth and discuss ideas...




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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 10:52:36 AM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, that was some few decades ago though now.......

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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 11:08:08 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Sanity if I were to give an example of the way in which the US got ahead of the rest of the world then I'd say that in your constitution you got to heart of what is important to individuals in a way that we couldn't and probably still can't. Whether or not the spirit and rule of those written laws have always been followed and if they still create a real difference between the US and the rest of the world now is more debatable.

Also in production you understand quality control better; in Europe we looked for defects after production which means time and resources has already been lost but in the US the approach was to study how such defects had arisen and then change the production process. You exported these ideas to Japan via Demin and Juran then Japan evolved the ideas and controlled the process better. The rest of the world caught up and now you need a new trick.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/31/2009 11:09:19 AM >


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RE: The evolution of the USA ? - 12/31/2009 11:44:26 AM   
Sanity


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No, our main problem is that we're devolving into the very ways of socialism and tyranny of all-powerful central government that many who fled to our nation of immigrants worked so hard to escape from. Look at the next thread over, if someone dares to vary from the socialist norm there isn't any part of his private life, or no lie that won't be dredged up in order to try to vilify him.

We are becoming a nation of slaves, but the injustice is being relabeled as "justice" now.


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