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Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 6:18:13 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I seem to recall something about President Obama giving Iran a deadline to come to the table about their nuclear program.  It runs out right about now.  From the same locale, I've also been following the recent protests, and murders in the street as the people of that country try to gain some voice in how they are ruled.

On the first, another crack at diplomacy seemed worth a shot, but the fist has stayed clinched.  Where do we go from here?  Sanctions?  Can we even achieve them?  A military strike, either by the US directly, or by turning our backs and whistling a little tune while Israel uses Iraqi airspace to do it themselves?  What else is there?  Invasion?  I doubt that would go over very well.  I'm thinking we now have to take a more aggressive/confrontational stance, and that might mean something has to go "boom," in the night.

To the protests of the people, I do think President Obama has taken the right path in saying little in the beginning.  We have too much recent history to even seek the appearance of meddling like that.  As somebody who appreciates free speech and the idea that government should be of the people, it's not always the most comfortable position.  I think we are one big outrage from being able to shift a little bit, and I think it is time to turn up that heat as well.  More can be said, without going over the top.

Thoughts?

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 12/31/2009 6:19:16 PM >

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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 6:22:16 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		It will be sacntions. We have stretched our military too far already.

I don't know if they will achieve anything besides pissing the Iranian populace off.

Jeff

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RE: Iran - 12/31/2009 6:23:03 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Nuclear weapons have existed within our enemies arsenals before so we should deal with it the same way as before I suppose. Mutual assured destruction seems to be a good deterrent.

I think we should refrain from aggressive actions and for once let the rest of the world lose sympathy for Iran’s international defiance. Also sanctions.


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RE: Iran - 12/31/2009 6:32:04 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		The problem with sanctions is, only the"common" people get hurt. These are the folks we are trying to win over.

Those in power will always have food and medicine and rolex watches.


Jeff




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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 6:42:01 PM   
thompsonx


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Why is it any of our business what kind of weapons another country has?

T.












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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 6:47:11 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		The skeptic would say oil. Somalia is all fucked up  along with  many other countries.

I suppose it is their institutional hatred of us?


Jeff

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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 7:03:26 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Thoughts?


What kind of thoughts?

It's a fair assessment of where we are. What to do next is complicated, no matter what.

Whether anyone likes it, though, we're going to need help on this one--and from Russia and China.

We have absolutely no credibility with Iran, and frankly, for good reason.


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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 7:07:12 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		I have to agree with you there. We have a long history of self interest, dating back to South America in the 50's.

For too long we have talked the talk, but not walked the walk.


Jeff

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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 7:50:32 PM   
Sanity


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The Iranian government doesn't have much credibility in Iran:


quote:

Riot police march through Tehran


There was tight security in central Tehran and some main squares toward the north of the city on Thursday with armed police taking to the streets creating an intimidating atmosphere.

The riot police in black and camouflage uniforms were accompanied by plainclothes members of basij – the voluntary arm of the elite Revolutionary Guards.

Eyewitnesses said the forces were marching and patrolling the streets on motorcycles in groups, making central Tehran look like a conflict zone.


There were unconfirmed reports that the opposition was planning to gather in some parts of the capital city in response to the state-organised rally on Wednesday when hundreds of thousands of government supporters gathered in central Tehran in a show of strength and delivering what seemed like an ultimatum to the opposition.

Many in the state-organised rally called for the execution of Mir-Hossein Moussavi, the opposition leader who ran against President Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad in the disputed election in June.

Mr Moussavi is blamed by fundamentalists for the biggest unrest against the Islamic regime in its history.“Death to Moussavi” and “Moussavi is a killer, his execution is necessary” were among the slogans chanted on Wednesday. The rally was shown live on state television and, unusually, the slogans against Mr Moussavi were also broadcast. Similar rallies were organised across the country.

The gathering was a reaction to the opposition rallies on Sunday, when hundreds of thousands marched in the streets of Tehran and other cities, many of them openly chanting against Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Leader.

More here


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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 7:53:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		True. Things are complicated.

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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 8:54:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Whether anyone likes it, though, we're going to need help on this one--and from Russia and China.




Any ideas on how we get them to provide that help?  How does taking our side on Iran benefit them? 

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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 9:04:22 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I have to agree with you there. We have a long history of self interest, dating back to South America in the 50's.

For too long we have talked the talk, but not walked the walk.

Jeff


What does that mean, Jeff? We have done a lot more than talk.

We just had this discussion about Iran but I think it is worth having again. I agree with Musicmystery we will get nothing done through the UN without Russia or China. Some backroom deals need to be stuck there. Maybe we can give them Nebraska :)

Invasion seems beyond our capabilities. Bombing will stengthen the Mullahs and rally the moderates to their side in an orgy of patriotism. And we cannot be sure where all the nuclear sites are. In the other thread someone suggested dropping some unarmed missles in downtown Tehran as a warning. I don't understand that. And then there are Iranian counter offensives to be considered. Complicated stuff indeed.

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RE: Iran 2010 - 12/31/2009 10:36:28 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Any ideas on how we get them to provide that help? 


No.

quote:

How does taking our side on Iran benefit them? 


The consequences of a nuclear strike, or of dissidents getting nuclear materials, would seem a common goal.

Preventing Iran from becoming a stronger power in an oil rich region also doesn't seem in their best interests.

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RE: Iran 2010 - 1/1/2010 4:50:46 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The Iranian government doesn't have much credibility in Iran:



They've got the credibility of armed troops.

This article discusses Obama's options entirely from the standpoint of sanctions enforced through US-sponsored UN actions. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091231/wl_mideast_afp/usirannucleardiplomacy_20091231180848




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RE: Iran 2010 - 1/1/2010 6:59:11 AM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I have to agree with you there. We have a long history of self interest, dating back to South America in the 50's.

For too long we have talked the talk, but not walked the walk.

Jeff


What does that mean, Jeff? We have done a lot more than talk.

We just had this discussion about Iran but I think it is worth having again. I agree with Musicmystery we will get nothing done through the UN without Russia or China. Some backroom deals need to be stuck there. Maybe we can give them Nebraska :)

Invasion seems beyond our capabilities. Bombing will stengthen the Mullahs and rally the moderates to their side in an orgy of patriotism. And we cannot be sure where all the nuclear sites are. In the other thread someone suggested dropping some unarmed missles in downtown Tehran as a warning. I don't understand that. And then there are Iranian counter offensives to be considered. Complicated stuff indeed.



It means that in the past, in our "National Interests" we have propped up dictators and despots on one hand and ignored others on the other hand. All the while preaching freedom and democracy.

The Sha of Iran is an example of the first, Pol Pot of the second.

There are no easy answers and sometimes hard choices have to be made. We also need to be aware of  how our past actions may lead to distrust.


Jeff

Jeff




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RE: Iran 2010 - 1/1/2010 7:24:54 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


Any ideas? 


How about we leave them alone and stop fucking with them?...Oh wait how can we steal their oil and not be fucking with them?

T.

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RE: Iran 2010 - 1/1/2010 7:29:23 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The Iranian government doesn't have much credibility in Iran:



From your posts the American government does not have much credibility with you.
So your point would be?

T.

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RE: Iran 2010 - 1/1/2010 7:41:52 AM   
Sanity


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Were our national interests better served by the Shah, or by the Ayatollah. And how about freedom, who were the Iranians more free under.

Back then the Soviet Empire was ruled by thugs who would deliberately kill entire nations of people through starvation or any other means that gave them their jollies, and the Mid East was of strategic importance because of the Suez Canal, the various sea ports there, and the oil.

We were at war, and I'm glad that our leaders at the time did what was necessary to win it, I am thankful every day.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
It means that in the past, in our "National Interests" we have propped up dictators and despots on one hand and ignored others on the other hand. All the while preaching freedom and democracy.

The Sha of Iran is an example of the first, Pol Pot of the second.

There are no easy answers and sometimes hard choices have to be made. We also need to be aware of  how our past actions may lead to distrust.


Jeff

Jeff





< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/1/2010 7:43:58 AM >

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RE: Iran 2010 - 1/1/2010 7:45:03 AM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		I would argue that the execesses of the Shah, backed by us, lead to the Iranian revolution. Had we stepped on him in reguards to human rights it is possible things would be a bit better now.....

Possible?


Jeff

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RE: Iran 2010 - 1/1/2010 7:52:05 AM   
Sanity


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The Iranian girls I met in College had fond memories of the Iran they knew under the Shah, but related tales of horror in regards to the Islamic extremists who replaced him.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I would argue that the execesses of the Shah, backed by us, lead to the Iranian revolution. Had we stepped on him in reguards to human rights it is possible things would be a bit better now.....

Possible?


Jeff


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