Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 3:01:45 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Yep.  It seems the prosecutors botched the preparation of the case, relying heavily on inadmissible evidence.  An omen of what will happen when we try to put terrorists who have been held and interrogated outside the civilian system on trial in New York, perhaps?


I fully agree. The Iraqis needed to see this trial carried out in a transparent manner, in order to have faith in the US court system. The door is now wide open for talk of a cover up, the fact the prosecution was botched will be seen as neither here nor there.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 6:41:27 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Things are different in a war zone, in a conquered country. (There I go again, failing to be perfectly politically correct, but oh well). 

< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/2/2010 6:45:21 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 7:05:07 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		What the hell, Rich.  Go ahead and use the term "occupied".

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 7:21:01 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Yep.  It seems the prosecutors botched the preparation of the case, relying heavily on inadmissible evidence.  An omen of what will happen when we try to put terrorists who have been held and interrogated outside the civilian system on trial in New York, perhaps?


I fully agree. The Iraqis needed to see this trial carried out in a transparent manner, in order to have faith in the US court system. The door is now wide open for talk of a cover up, the fact the prosecution was botched will be seen as neither here nor there.


its not a matter of the prosecution but the jurisdiction.

The venue, forum and jurisdiction was in iraq.

They did the same thing to tim mcveigh only to get a conviction.

its right out of the judicial dirty tricks manual.

people who know right from wrong but are not aware of that will say cover up and conspiracy and when these kinds of things are left to go on by people who know better or should know better conspiracy claims are correct. 

of course everyone knows its only a conspiracy "theory".  LOL



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 7:21:42 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
I am Thomas, Steven. TheHeretic is Rich (even if he's not fabulously wealthy).

And "occupied" it is, thank you. The word had escaped me somehow.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What the hell, Rich.  Go ahead and use the term "occupied".


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 7:23:50 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Things are different in a war zone, in a conquered country. (There I go again, failing to be perfectly politically correct, but oh well). 


granted we can cite some differences in procedure but it does not translate wrong into right.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 7:34:28 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Ah, but who is to judge what's wrong and what's right?

That's the question. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

granted we can cite some differences in procedure but it does not translate wrong into right.



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 7:44:25 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		In the old days like really old days they used to put up a plaque at the edge of a city.

On that plaque it had all the rules of the city with the consequences.

Each locality had rules according to their customs and way of life.

Today that is known as common law.

(which unfortunately the true definition will not be found in law books)

right and wrong comes out of religion as much as it hurts people to think about that.

no murdering and thieving etc goes back to the cave man.

ALL "LAW", (not to be confused with what people think is law....[legal] ),  is grounded in and grew out of religion which goes back to the source God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Ah, but who is to judge what's wrong and what's right?

That's the question. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

granted we can cite some differences in procedure but it does not translate wrong into right.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 8:39:02 AM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Ah, but who is to judge what's wrong and what's right?
That's the question. 


I thought only liberals were in favor of moral relativism?

I dunno, maybe it is that whole "Judeo-Christian" thing, but I consider gunning down inoocent civilians to be impolite, or dare I say it, "morally wrong". But then, I am politically incorrect that way.

In all seriousness, this IS a mess, legally. When the Bush Admin enlisted massive numbers of mercenaries, more than had ever been done before, they never bothered to construct a legal framework under which they would operate. They acted with disdain and disregard for any law that might restrict what they wanted to do- Alberto Gonzales famously said the Geneva Conventions were "quaint"- this attitude permated the entire Adminisration.

Oh, for the Bush-lovers- I will toss you this- In the Bosnian War, the Clinton Administration didn't act much better- they hired Dyncorp as a military contractor to provide security in Bosnia. There were very credible stories coming out of there about the Dyncorp contractors running child brothels and having underage mistresses. But they fell under no law, US or Yugoslavian or military, so the entire thing was quietly ignored.

The problem here is that old saying- "When you step outside the law, you lose the protection of it". Right at this moment, the United States is the biggest, most powerful nation on earth, and we can do whatever we want, anywhere we want, with no consequences.
If we consider someone a criminal, we can just snatch them off the street in Italy, fly them to some hell hole dungeon, and torture them until they confess, or die.
If we consider someone a threat to us, we can just lob a missile into their house, on any country's soil, without any repercussions.

This is NOT a good thing for America- each Adminnistration keeps acting with more and more arrogance, more and and more insular bullying, and progressively alienating our friends and allies around the world.

This is turning America into the exact thing that the Founding Fathers fought a war to get rid of. This is treasonous to the very concept of what America is.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/2/2010 7:15:48 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Everything that has happened in the war that was in Iraq, all those people who died to depose a corrupt and unfair system of law and put in it's place something which might become a democracy. When what was set up as law in that country tries to bring a case against foreigners who acted unlawfully against Iraqi citizens, the US courts laugh in their face, tell me, does this send out a favourable message of what western law and democracy is all about, if it is, what Iraq has in place won't last, those that have fought and died will have died in vain, what they fought and died for was ideals, not the reality which the Iraqis are now beginning to understand. If there is to be any hope Iraq stabilises, they are going to have to be taken seriously as any other member of the international community. If the Blackwater employees are innocent, what have they to fear in a properly run Western style court of law in Iraq? If there is any question over their innocence, it does the US no good to deny Iraq when it tries to do things the right way, it is sending out the wrong kind of message.

Tell me, did the US actually gain the control of the oil they sought.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 9:32:48 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Tell me, did the US actually gain the control of the oil they sought.

Sort of. The oilfields are about the only part of the country they're making much of an effort to keep under control, but they have yet to export anything, largely because it's even easier for insurgents to blow up a pipeline than it is for them to bump people off. Technically they have the oil, but it's doing them no good at the moment.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 11:10:01 AM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What the hell, Rich.  Go ahead and use the term "occupied".



Occupied under a legal mandate from the UN to adminster, don't forget that part....

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 1:25:02 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What the hell, Rich.  Go ahead and use the term "occupied".



Occupied under a legal mandate from the UN to adminster, don't forget that part....

Didn't the UN rush that through after America had already illegally occupied the country?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 2:07:11 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Yep.  It seems the prosecutors botched the preparation of the case, relying heavily on inadmissible evidence.  An omen of what will happen when we try to put terrorists who have been held and interrogated outside the civilian system on trial in New York, perhaps?


Possibly, but both are the result of botched policies from the Bush administration.

Hiring mercenaries with what amounts to a "get out of jail free" card.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 2:15:55 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



A little over the top with the foaming at the mouth, don't you think, Rex?  How about, I don't think the civilian system is up to the task of trying cases where the crime occured during military action.  I think there is a good reason for knee-jerk bashers to oppose such a venue as well, but I haven't found a lefty yet who could spot it.

Let's call a spade a spade here.  These are mercenaries.  Their use is a direct result of tying the hands of our sworn servicemen with politically correct rules of engagement.  We just don't have a good mechanism in place to handle a case like this.   


Of course we do, it's called a court of law.

It works well in other cases of criminal misconduct, the only difference here is the issue of immunity which should never have been granted to a private contractor.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 2:49:51 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


well the us cant grant immunity on iraqi turf any more than I can grant someone immunity to operate in your house.  so if that is true it woul dhave had to come from the iraqis.




Iraq did, but it is no longer in force.

I highlighted the one paragraph because I find it amazing we have had more mercenaries in Iraq than actual military personnel. 

But, of course, this had nothing to do with profits for U.S. companies, it was all about destroying those WMD's that we haven't been able to find yet.



Iraq deal with US to end immunity for foreign contractors

The US has accepted that foreign contractors in Iraq will no longer have immunity from Iraqi law under a new security agreement now under negotiation, says the Iraqi Foreign Minister, Hoshyar Zebari.

Mr Zebari, speaking to The Independent in Washington, said that if there was a further incident like the one in which 17 Iraqis were killed by workers from the Blackwater security company in Baghdad last September, the Iraqis would arrest and punish the contractors held responsible.

The American concession would have a serious effect in Iraq, where there are an estimated 160,000 foreign contractors, many of them heavily armed security personnel. The contractors, who outnumber the 145,000-strong US Army in the country, have become a vital if much-resented part of the military machine in Iraq.

Mr Zebari, Foreign Minister since 2004 and one of the ablest Iraqi leaders, defends the security deal now being negotiated, in contrast to Iraqi critics who say it turns the country into an American client state. On Friday the Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said negotiations on twin political and military agreements between the US and Iraq had "reached a dead end".

Later, after a phone call from Mr Zebari, Mr Maliki backtracked from his earlier statement. But details of the American proposals, first published in The Independent, have been denounced in Iraq for making the US occupation permanent.


Mr Zebari contends that nothing is yet agreed and the American side is showing flexibility under instructions from President Bush. "I am using this example [the ending of immunity for US contractors] to show that talks have not reached a dead end," he said.



(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 2:50:47 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
the result of botched policies from the Bush administration.




LOL, RML!  That's just too fucking funny.  You post this at the same time you are trying like hell to derail a discussion of the problems of "green power" by insisting someone else explain where Obama and liberals come into it.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 3:01:41 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
the result of botched policies from the Bush administration.




LOL, RML!  That's just too fucking funny.  You post this at the same time you are trying like hell to derail a discussion of the problems of "green power" by insisting someone else explain where Obama and liberals come into it.




Well....................I can post proof of mine.

How about you?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 3:07:42 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
the result of botched policies from the Bush administration.




LOL, RML!  That's just too fucking funny.  You post this at the same time you are trying like hell to derail a discussion of the problems of "green power" by insisting someone else explain where Obama and liberals come into it.




Well....................I can post proof of mine.

How about you?




What was "mine" to begin with, RML?  I can hardly be expected to keep track of all the lies you tell about what I, or anyone else, said.  What did you make up so you would have something you felt competent to talk about?



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out - 1/3/2010 4:40:24 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What the hell, Rich.  Go ahead and use the term "occupied".



Occupied under a legal mandate from the UN to adminster, don't forget that part....


What mandate, specifically ?...... Hans Blix had stated Iraq had complied with resolution 1441.

I have to love the way the right has used the word occupied in this thread, since the invasion you have insisted you were liberators, so which is it ? It surely cant be both.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 1/3/2010 4:41:06 PM >

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.219