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RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 1:11:54 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:


Original Quote: justatoy2
i didn't see where anyone was justifying lying or betrayal.

Take a closer look......and also....are you of the opinion that the internet isnt riddled with people who switch screens when their partners walk in the room? Or riddled with people who start up online relationships unbeknownenst to their partner, meet up with these people and act out their betrayal in RL? That is what I was referring to. Im a pretty tolerant person, I just cant, wont tolerate betrayal, I feel very strongly about it and no fancy words or excuses is ever going to make it ok for me in my mind. People wonder why so many people get hurt from connecting up from people on the internet, most of the reason that happens is cause someone is betraying another. I've seen it over and over again on here. Ive seen it with people I know in real life and I have witnessed the pain it causes. I've seen all the excuses, all the crap. I just wish people would be more honest with themselves when they do shitty things, at least then your working with something honorable, honesty.

quote:


Original Quote: truesub4u
But when I see one person married to a "nilla" (God I hate that word) And goes outside the marriage to seek full fillment for ones inner desires... is total rubish.


Well, I dont see going outside the marriage as rubbish as long as its under the following conditions:

1. Both people have discussed this thorougly before one or both of them start to act on it in any way, shape or form.
2. Both people are involved, e.g if the outside party wanted to call the family home, whoever answers is going to know exactly who that person is and be able to be honestly friendly and welcoming of the call, no little niggles whatsoever. Heck the idea of the outside party was so agreeable to the entire household they could go there for an enjoyable dinner and entertaining evening.
2. A situation like Bita  described, one partner is totally incapacitated.

What I see as rubbish and any relationship stemming from it as rubbish would be anything involving:

1. Lying: If there has to be even one little lie to their partner - its crap. If anything your doing started out with a lie - thats crap and will always be crap.
2. Cheating: Anything where your involving another person in an intimate relationship while your significant other is not informed.- thats crap.
3. Betrayal: Breaking someones trust in you is just the most horrendous thing a person could do to someone else.Thats crap.
4. Blaming the other person for *making* you cheat. Thats crap. "Oh they just dont understand me" "They arent satisfying me" "Oh they are a mean and horrible person"..well they are excuses...and they are all crap.

And if that is the situation the OP is talking about....in cases like that...there is no way in hell that person can ever really commit responsibly to any relationship, let alone a D/s one.

(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 1:29:20 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Unlike where the education trends seem to be going 2+2 will always equal exactly 4. There ARE absolutes. Absolutes that should be the boundaries of doing what you want to do versus doing what you'd like to do, or have fun doing. There are thousands of justifications and reasons to rationalize doing things you want to do. It's much harder when you have absolutes, that define you, which conflict. You keep compromising your absolutes and before long you don't know what they are. Then you don't know who you are. I guess under those conditions it is impossible to fail.

I completely agree.  This is pretty much exactly why I will never be monogamous- that IS an absolute for myself.  And my partners will NEVER not be allowed to go out with others.  That's a serious absolute for us.

Of course there are crappy situations- there are in just about any type of relationship you can imagine.

But the fact is there are lots of happy and healthy situations, too.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 1:29:27 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

I can understand it. I wouldn't want to be in a similar position and have to make that decision, but I hope I'd be an asshole with integrity and divorce my dementia inflicted partner, paying the expenses out of my own pocket, than see my lying cheating face in the mirror every morning when I shaved.


Six of one, half a dozen of the other. If you make a vow to love, honor and cherish till death, then divorce because of dementia, then you've lied because you may have said till death.. but what you 'meant' was until it's too hard or until I don't want to.. or until something happens and it's too inconvenient. In any event, the face that looks back at you is still the face of a liar, despite attempts to justify it.  My father-in-law stayed married because he loved his wife. Simple as that. He could never have afforded to pay for her care on his own.   He's just your average working Joe, but even if he were a multi-millionaire, he wouldn't have divorced her because he loved her. So he broke his vow of fidelity, you'd break your vow to stay till death.. what's the difference here? He's just a liar, but you'd take being a liar and an ass over just being a liar. That makes zero sense to me. As for whether or not his sons agreed to his cheating.. if it's cheating, I don't think he asked their permission first. Lest we forget, she took a vow too. To love until death... did she break her vow because she didn't recognize him anymore TO love him? All perspective. I don't judge what he's done. I know when my own grandmother got Alzheimers, my grandfather did not divorce her, nor did he get a companion. He choose the route of celibacy and stayed celibate and married until her death. I honor and respect him for that choice and would like to think I'd make the same one if I were in that situation with Himself, but I don't expect others to make that choice. It has to be what works for them.

Celeste


_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to swtnsparkling)
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RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 1:31:26 PM   
LadyCompassion


Posts: 87
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		From the things that I have experienced, I know 100% that in any of my relationships, one of us cannot be involved with a third party in any way. Im not saying that this is the case for everyone, however. I just know myself and I know that when I engage in a relationship with someone, they had better be dedicated to me and me only. I dont want a split relationship where they act one way with me and another way with a different partner. In the relationship that I am in now, before I knew what being a Domme was  ( I was completely unaware of the lifestyle at that time), my fiancee went out and took it upon himself to find a mistress. The way I saw it was that he was cheating. You cannot give of yourself to someone else and still give fully to the original partner. But that is just how it is for me. Im not saying this is the rule for everyone.

(in reply to upherass)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 2:13:16 PM   
justatoy2


Posts: 163
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		jali,
i happen to agree with you. My only point was i didn't see justifying in the posts in this forum, but i will take another look. As for my opinion....the internet is filled with people who lie, cheat, betray. Just as they are there in r/l. I was speaking from my own experiences. I have often had married men try to contact me because they found out i was married, and always i would reply when you are honest with your wife, then i will talk to you. But i do think we got away from the original question that the OP asked. I have had many people ask me why don't you leave your husband if he doesn't fufill all your needs. Its not a black and white situation. The difference between our situation and cheating is that he is involved. We have had my Dom over for dinner, he knows our children, and occasionally we all go out for dinner.  When and if my husband would find a femdom he clicks with then i would be happy for him and support him however i could. I know this is a very difficult concept for people to wrap their brains around.  But i am of the belief that a person can love many people. If my husband were to serve someone i would be overjoyed for him. It would make him a better husband and a better father. I can't supply all his needs or wants. But at the same time, i love him and want to stay married to him. That is my choice. That is his choice. Because of how important honesty is in our relationship, i certainly do not support people who cheat on their spouses. I have tried to help many people become more open with their spouses, and even succeeded a few times.

(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 2:13:42 PM   
Oumae


Posts: 911
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		This has been a most thought provoking thread and I've enjoyed learning from both sides, monogamy and poly.  I've seen both work so reckon it is down to the people involved in a situation.  To me honesty and consent is what is important.

As to dementia... If I got so bad that I did not recognise my partner(s) and they stuck by me seeing that I got care I needed I would have no problem with them fulfilling their needs.  As I've stated it publically that means they wouldn't be cheating.

Oumae

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(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 2:14:55 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

So he broke his vow of fidelity, you'd break your vow to stay till death.. what's the difference here? He's just a liar, but you'd take being a liar and an ass over just being a liar.


Celeste,
DAMN good point and I agree with you! Didn't think it through enough. You are 100% correct. My recourse would be to stay "until death". I hope to never be faced with the situation, but I hope I would come to the same conclusion.

THANKS!

Guess I'd just have to join the other "one handed web surfers".

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 2:25:21 PM   
peasantsub


Posts: 15
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline 		i am collared to a Master whom lives in Texas with His wife.  Wwe are very happy with Oour relationship, and i respect where i stand in His life.  i know that He loves me as only a Master could love a slave, and i love Him as only a slave could love her Master.  i wish no ill tidings on His marriage and hope that it stays forever strong.  when i go to visit Him, i respect His home just as if i were at my own home in Georgia.  i would never cross that line.  i serve Him with all my heart and soul and would walk across the world and back to meet His demands of me.  He knows this.  He also knows that i respect that He is married to vanilla and i meet His other needs.  i am a single woman and do not wish to search for another Master as long as my Master and i are happy.  i am more than willing to stay collared to my Master as long as He will own me.  i don't expect Him to leave His wife for me, nor do i expect Him to father a child with me or give me anything more than this lifestyle.  i will forever belong to Master John

(in reply to Littlepita)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 3:59:40 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

So he broke his vow of fidelity, you'd break your vow to stay till death.. what's the difference here? He's just a liar, but you'd take being a liar and an ass over just being a liar.


Celeste,
DAMN good point and I agree with you! Didn't think it through enough. You are 100% correct. My recourse would be to stay "until death". I hope to never be faced with the situation, but I hope I would come to the same conclusion.

THANKS!

Guess I'd just have to join the other "one handed web surfers".


i am using this post, not to address Mercnbeth directly but as an example of so many examples i see, where the world (and any subject, not just this one) is black and white to someone until someone else explains something that opens ones eyes otherwise.  The truth is, as Celeste says, life is messy.  Lines are blurred and there IS a grey area.  In one moment Celeste's father-in-law was condemned in black & white judgement, and in another he was understood.

This tells me there are always exceptions, and as i am not God Almighty i can not possibly judge what is in another's heart and what compells them to do what they do.

Jali, i ask you this - - did you read the thread about how abuse led some of us to D/s?  If so, i will understand that you think I am crap and will go forward with that knowledge.  Or was my previous situation understandable?  And if so, i am not crap but everyone else (whom you may not know) is?

i do not condem nor condone another's behavior without understanding where they are coming from.  This thread is now 7 pages, mostly of everyone who seems in agreement of the black & white theory.  i have not posted to it because i do not live a black & white life.  Sometimes what people do is abhorrant to me.  Sometimes i might understand it, even if i don't like it.  And other times, i will actually support it.  And they may all be doing the same thing!  Go figure.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 3/22/2006 4:05:04 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:02:29 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		slavejali i agree with you... celeste i also agree with you... i think; however, imo, you are talking about 2 different things here... again just my opinion.  Personally i have zero problem with a poly relationship.  i assume that Ffolks that go into a poly relationship, BOTH parties know exactly what they are doing at the time the marriage vows are spoken, i.e. that at the time of the 'vow' there are no hidden agendas... that both parties KNOW. 

Here's what i have a problem with:  A and b meet... they fall in love... He proposes... she accepts... (never a discussion about poly by either person because A knows if b knew, b would not agree, so vows are spoken)... Did A lie to b?

They get married.... down the road a piece... one realizes that they 'need' or 'want' something more.  Let's just say A says to b... i want a submissive/slave, how do you feel about that?  B says... wait a second... i'm not comfortable with that.  A responds by saying... ok then there is the door, because what i want  means more to me than what you want... so you either accept that i AM  taking a submissive/slave... regardless of how you feel or you leave.  Now please remember b went into this relationship believing the vows A spoke... again, there was never any talk/discussion of ever bringing another into this relationship.  How much love does A have for b?  Someone's got to give, right?  B can say... 'ok i love you enough and will swallow all the pain that this might cause me'... and A smiles smuggly never once truly caring about the pain they have cause b... because as far as A is concerned... A got what A wanted.  Did A lie when A said the vows?  Isn't A just as much of a cheat as those that 'hide'? imo A is just as much of a cheat.  A broke the vow that A led b to believe was true.

i'm pretty sure i muddied the waters here... i don't do all that well in putting across what i feel.  The bottom line is imo if you go into a relationship and change the rules mid-stream and then issue an ultimatium(sp?) suddenly changes the rules, are you cheating?

Celeste i am not speaking to what you said... that is imo completely different.  i am speaking to those that have healthy spouses and led those spouses on a trail of deceit and then give them the 'agree or go'... imo that's just bullshit.

< Message edited by angelic -- 3/22/2006 4:31:37 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to peasantsub)
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RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:15:00 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		ownedgirlie:

I'm not talking about judging people, I'm just talking about seeing the things we do for what they are. I'm so not judging you or anyone else. We do things in life, some things we arent proud of, some we are...I'm just talking about honor and responsibility and whatever etc. and admitting to ourselves what they really are.

Here is an example:
When I was young-er *grin*...I went and slept with 4 different guys in a 3 day period to teach my husband a lesson for hurting me. I just went out picked them up and fucked their brains out. I wanted to show him he didnt "own" me, i wanted to show myself he didnt "own" me. Lotsa reasons. Now, no matter how justified I thought I was at the time, or how I reasoned it to myself, the fact is i betrayed my husband and i betrayed my promise to him. Now the fact that he had been abusing me and that I had left him for that three days, is irrelevant in my opinion. I did a dishonorable thing, which dishonored myself, betrayed him and I lied to him until I couldnt stand myself any longer and admitted what I had done. Then I accepted the consequences. In that way I could resolve it within me, and really realise something about dishonoring myself and dishonoring other people and make sure it never ever happened again.

I'm saying some of our actions are absolute crap and shitty and horrible and disgusting and and and *grin*..and if we dont learn by them, but keep justifying them, we remain dishonorable.......and if thats the case there is no way we can be fully committed to any relationship, D/s or not.

P.S and i dont think your crap

< Message edited by slavejali -- 3/22/2006 4:27:01 PM >

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:17:58 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		well said slavejali...

< Message edited by angelic -- 3/22/2006 4:20:44 PM >

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:22:29 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

i am using this post, not to address Mercnbeth directly but as an example of so many examples i see, where the world (and any subject, not just this one) is black and white to someone until someone else explains something that opens ones eyes otherwise.  The truth is, as Celeste says, life is messy.  Lines are blurred and there IS a grey area. 


owned girlie,
I'd say it confirms that things are Black and White, especially the last sentence of the post. It's only when you compromise those ideals that things turn gray. I was wrong in not considering Celeste's point, but once I did, if I were in that situation, I wouldn't rationalize my breaking one vow versus another.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:30:27 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		what i 'think' celeste was speaking about was a relationship where one's health deteriorated so much that one didn't even know the other... imo that is completely different... from 'collaring when married to others'. 



_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:34:16 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

i am using this post, not to address Mercnbeth directly but as an example of so many examples i see, where the world (and any subject, not just this one) is black and white to someone until someone else explains something that opens ones eyes otherwise.  The truth is, as Celeste says, life is messy.  Lines are blurred and there IS a grey area. 


owned girlie,
I'd say it confirms that things are Black and White, especially the last sentence of the post. It's only when you compromise those ideals that things turn gray. I was wrong in not considering Celeste's point, but once I did, if I were in that situation, I wouldn't rationalize my breaking one vow versus another.


I tend to think everything is alot of grey's ... except one thing.... My decision on what my next step is going to be which also reflects the direction I am going....    I suspect you are alot like me.... My decisions moving forward... even if they are made in a the fog of fire... is going to be resolute!  I will dump all the if's and maybe's and take the step.  It is very um Black and White moment... sometimes these moments will continue for some time... the momentum carries me forward.  But, sooner or later... new thoughts and feeling need to be considered... the grey areas creep in... and then another decision is made... Black and White, Resolute and Determined.  Sometimes the decision changes the the direction of have been going... sometimes it doesn't.

I consider Open-Mindedness a character strength that allows one to live within the greys.... a character strength that I admire and enjoy in others and work hard to build in myself.  I consider Perseverance as a character strenght of taking out of the greys and find that Black and White direction that is best suited for oneself and those ones cares for.  Both character strengths are to be admired... but each have a place... the trick is balance them at the right moments....  which leads to other character strenghts of Critical Thinking, Wisdom, Prudence, Self-Control. just to name a few.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:34:28 PM   
WikedUncle


Posts: 45
Status: offline
quote:

  The other collaring post got me thinking about the committment they represent to many. Most agree it IS a committment, though the level of it varies among the membership here, based on the other question.
So then, do you think if one or both partners are committed to others by marriage that they can FULLY commit to a lifestyle collar, and the responsibility it entails?

I don't think so, but I have never been in that position, nor would I be.               


This is less a reply than a twofold comment, from someone who *has* been in that position.  First, I'm continually amazed at how ready people are to judge (read, condemn) the personal decisions of individuals they do not know and are likely never to know, and to thrust their own choices into difficult decisions that really are none of their business. Second, the readiness of people to do that, and to invoke the expression "lifestyle" when doing so, reminds me yet again how deeply I dislike that trivial, cavalier expression.

Tell you what. Suppose you all manage your own lives, let others manage theirs, and I'll agree  not to flame the term "lifestyle" as long as you do. I expect I won't have to hold off more than half an hour.




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(in reply to upherass)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:39:12 PM   
sissybutgirl


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		While i agree with much of he discussion here I am in the search of finding a Domme wh owould collar me as my Wife who knows i want her dominance is not wanting that and knows i need to find it. So if the couple is in agreement and knows eachother then it should not be an issue. As many I would hope it to me my wife to be the dominant one but as it is i need more than she will do in that regard and she is aware

(in reply to Littlepita)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:42:53 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		a question, please Knight?  what if alandra had said no?

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:45:40 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

a question, please Knight?  what if alandra had said no?


Said "No" to what? and for what reasons? 

Btw...alandra has never said no to me, but she has given me information from time to time that caused me to change my mind on things as has kyra.


Edited to add...

however, more times than not... my mind as not be changed

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 3/22/2006 4:48:31 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Collars when married to others - 3/22/2006 4:49:41 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		You are married to alandra... what if when you wanted to bring a third, fourth or fifth in... she said 'no'?  btw i am asking this of You because i don't believe You ever lied or 'cheated' on her... i believe that the Ttwo of Yyou went into this "with eyes wide open'... however, the question remains, what if she said 'no'?

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 140
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