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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:58:25 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		And it's still lower than the EU that's kicking our butt.

What to make of that?

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 12:03:55 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And it's still lower than the EU that's kicking our butt.

What to make of that?

Well for one thing, their defense budget is comparatively zip, while ours is through the roof trying to be in a position to meet our committments to defend the asses of half of the rest of the world, thanks to treaties that compel us respond to an attack on Whereverthefuck, Earth as if it was an attack on the sovereign territory of the United States.

I believe the phrase I want is "foreign entanglements."

K.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 12:06:57 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Peace through strength pays handsome dividends, but it would be nice to have some help shouldering the load.

There are some legitimate threats out there, which history has proven that time and again and it is always ready and willing to repeat the lesson for anyone unwise enough to forget it.





< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/2/2010 12:09:06 PM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 12:09:45 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		Well, "you're either with us or against us" helps with that. Just have sufficient strength to take on EVERYONE, all at once, and then wipe out anyone that could possibly oppose you, not help enough, look at you funny, or do something you disapprove of.

There's a LOT of resources out there for the taking.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 2:04:59 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		From the artickle:
"The financial crisis is, for all practical purposes, over, and forecasters are now generally expecting the job market to turn around early in 2010 and begin creating jobs. The task ahead for the next generation of economists is to figure out how, in a decade that began with such economic promise, things went so wrong."
This is a typical nonsence the journalists come out these days.
There are clear signs the US is close to a collapse in a few years:
1. The economy: unseen in history debt and borrowing, insane budget deficits, huge and still increasing trade deficit, war, structural problems, the parasitic part of the economy is prevalent (pushing paper and money around), absurd income distribution.
2. The demographics: retirement peak of the "baby boomers", illegal immigration, public education crisis.
3. The goverment: divided, incompetent, corrupt, acessory to looting, acting on impulse rather than having a meaningful strategy.



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 2:14:49 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, jobs are the last indicator of a turnaround.

Surprisingly strong jobs data signal turning point

WASHINGTON -It's the clearest sign yet the recession is finally ending: Employers laid off far fewer workers in July, the jobless rate dipped for the first time in 15 months and workers' hours and pay edged upward.

Those are the kind of figures that could give Americans the psychological boost necessary for recovery to take root after the worst recession since World War II.

A net total of 247,000 jobs were lost last month, the fewest in a year and a drastic improvement from the 443,000 that vanished in June.

The Labor Department's report Friday showed that the unemployment rate dropped a notch to 9.4 percent in July, from 9.5 percent the previous month. Together with slight increases in the average workweek and wages, the new figures suggested the economy is in a transition from recession to recovery.

"The worst may be behind us," President Barack Obama declared. "Today, we're pointed in the right direction."

Still, the job market remains shaky. A quarter-million lost jobs are a far cry from the employment growth needed to put the national economy on solid footing.

When the economy is healthy, employers need to add a net total of around 125,000 jobs a month just to keep the unemployment rate stable. And to push the jobless rate down to a more normal 5 percent range, it would take much stronger growth — at least 200,000 new jobs a month. Economists say it might take until 2013 to drive down the unemployment rate to 5 percent.

http://money.aol.com/article/surprisingly-strong-jobs-data-signal/607667?cid=9



I like this guy and I like this idea and I think it might work it could do a lot of good things like correct the corruption problem in politics and get rid of corporate taxes which would stimulate the economy. And I think Republicans will support elimination of corporate taxes unless now they have become anarchists.


Robert Reich and the Elimination of Corporate Criminal Liability | CommonDreams.org

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/07/3686.


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 2:38:10 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

From the artickle:
"The financial crisis is, for all practical purposes, over, and forecasters are now generally expecting the job market to turn around early in 2010 and begin creating jobs. The task ahead for the next generation of economists is to figure out how, in a decade that began with such economic promise, things went so wrong."
This is a typical nonsence the journalists come out these days.
There are clear signs the US is close to a collapse in a few years:
1. The economy: unseen in history debt and borrowing, insane budget deficits, huge and still increasing trade deficit, war, structural problems, the parasitic part of the economy is prevalent (pushing paper and money around), absurd income distribution.
2. The demographics: retirement peak of the "baby boomers", illegal immigration, public education crisis.
3. The goverment: divided, incompetent, corrupt, acessory to looting, acting on impulse rather than having a meaningful strategy.





I am going to agree with Fellow's thinking here.

Almost everything I have read states that we will probably have a high number of people that are unemployed for at least 3-7 years.
Here are the links I posted on my "Terrible Teens" thread from 7 days ago, I am re-posting the links, cause not a damn thing has changed since last week.


UCLA 2010 Economic Forecast: High Unemployment | Wall Street Survivor University

Even as Economy Mends, a Jobless Decade May Loom - NYTimes.com

All this talk is cheap, when the unemployment numbers start going down, and situations really begin to change, than I will be impressed.
Talk is damn cheap, show me the jobs, show me things changing, until then?
Until then, I am calling BULLSHIT, on unemployment going significantly DOWN any time SOON.

I heard somewhere we need to create at LEAST 300,000 jobs a month, to BEGIN to tread water!
300,000 a month to just pull us up!!
Paul Krugman from the NY Times article called "The Jobs Deficit" about 3 weeks ago, I think he is on the money here.
The jobs deficit - Paul Krugman Blog - NYTimes.com

< Message edited by MzMia -- 1/2/2010 3:00:49 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Fellow)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 3:41:12 PM   
DedicatedDom40


Posts: 350
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Cost cutting isn't happening where it needs to most, which is at the level of the federal government. The projected deficits are going to kill us.




I cannot believe that some in this country are more worried about a projected deficit less than $25 trillion when we live with $700 trillion of financial WMD's hanging over our heads that was built by an unregulated free market. You sincerely think $20 trillion created by big bad government is more deadly to our existence than $700 trillion of debt created by the unregulated capitalist?




quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

We need cheap energy, low corporate taxes, and a more business friendly atmosphere generally. Lately all our employers have been treated like pariahs and that has consequences.




Lowering corporate taxes without closing the NAFTA door does NOT create jobs in this country. All it does is fatten the bank account of the business owner, who makes more crap overseas and gets a tax break for doing it.

You may think beating up on the ownership class in this country is "bad for business", but today's ownership class in this country does NOT have any loyalties to American citizens or to the country in general.  Yea, back during WW II, the business owner did behave in a way that helped the country and his workers.  We don't live in the 40's anymore, and today's class of business owners simply do not have the ethics of the previous generations.  We have gone through 2 decades of benefiting the business owner for the purpose of job creation, and all the corporate welfare handed out has produced shit.  Anybody who thinks more of the same is on tap when it hasn't worked for 2 decades is one dumb son of a bitch.

This is the problem. The old 'fixes' no longer work because the world has changed in the past 50 years, and nobody has any new ideas to back up their bitching.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 4:19:02 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		In my view, capitalism suffers from the same shortcomings as democracy. Just as democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms, capitalism is the worst form of economic system except for all the other forms. The problems we face in both our government and our economy arise from our lack of any practical sense of unity and common values. Personal liberties are viewed as a cliche, and individual responsibility as purely a legal matter. To speak of compassion has become a form of self-aggrandizement, and unity is caricatured as acquiescence to the unacceptable. The problem is not that our government and our economy are a mess, the problem is that we are a mess.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/2/2010 4:49:56 PM >

(in reply to DedicatedDom40)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 5:35:39 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

In my view, capitalism suffers from the same shortcomings as democracy. Just as democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms, capitalism is the worst form of economic system except for all the other forms. The problems we face in both our government and our economy arise from our lack of any practical sense of unity and common values. Personal liberties are viewed as a cliche, and individual responsibility as purely a legal matter. To speak of compassion has become a form of self-aggrandizement, and unity is caricatured as acquiescence to the unacceptable. The problem is not that our government and our economy are a mess, the problem is that we are a mess.

K.





Kirata, true, and one thing we need to do which would help immeasurably is to get "big business" out of our government!
It's like every bill written in the last 16 years has favored big business and not "The People."
I laugh when people use the word "capitalism". What we're doing now is not capitalism.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 6:06:24 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
It's like every bill written in the last 16 years has favored big business and not "The People."
I laugh when people use the word "capitalism". What we're doing now is not capitalism.


Bingo.

I wrote a diary entry at RedState (yes, the rightwing website) where I compared Corporatism to Capitalism; it was not well received, to put it mildly.

But the truth is, both liberals and conservatives are missing the big picture- the merger of corporate power and government power; It perverts both in the long run.
Huffpo had a great article showing why a Democratic committe was overrun by banking interests

Democrats- not Republicans- were in the pocket of the banks, and voted against the interests of the people, and for the interests of the banks.

Oh, the Republicans on the committee did likewise- but no one was surprised at that, and they themselves are proud of it.
But the sobering message for liberals, is that maybe only 30% of Democrats are capable of standing up to the banks and corporate interests. We are living in a new Gilded Age, akin to when the corrput trusts ran the country. What we need is a Teddy Roosevelt to take them on and break up the entrenched powers.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 6:58:58 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

But the truth is, both liberals and conservatives are missing the big picture- the merger of corporate power and government power; It perverts both in the long run.

Mussolini would be amused.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/2/2010 7:13:37 PM >

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 8:23:02 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

I agree with you on most of these points, as I've already indicated from my own points, with these two exceptions:

1) that we are on the verge of collapse.
2) that we're under an immense new threat from the merger of corporate business and government.

You already know I view the financial situation as serious. But hardly collapse. Along with all these problems, we also have trillions of dollars of production, even in bad times. We need to better address a number of points, but the sky is dark, not falling.

And while I agree that corporate business and government are uncomfortably close, and that we should address it as best it can be addressed, this is nothing new--not at all. It's been there since the beginning of the country, and it's been far worse at times in U.S. history.

Recognize and address serious problems, yes. Overstate and/or over-react to them...no. That's not helpful; it just further distorts.

Carry on.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/2/2010 9:09:41 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 8:59:25 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

In my view, capitalism suffers from the same shortcomings as democracy. Just as democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms, capitalism is the worst form of economic system except for all the other forms. The problems we face in both our government and our economy arise from our lack of any practical sense of unity and common values. Personal liberties are viewed as a cliche, and individual responsibility as purely a legal matter. To speak of compassion has become a form of self-aggrandizement, and unity is caricatured as acquiescence to the unacceptable. The problem is not that our government and our economy are a mess, the problem is that we are a mess.

K.

I totally agree with you Kirata, the Democrats are just as much to blame as the Republicans.
The American citizens have been sold down the river, due to the fact that corporations and
the government have been in bed together and screwing us!    
I have always blamed the "government" for having a big hand in this.
 
This country is collapsing, and we sure the hell have not seen the worst of it yet.
What's going to be interesting, is how we get out of this "mess", and it sure as hell
will NOT be any time soon.


< Message edited by MzMia -- 1/2/2010 9:07:04 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 9:17:32 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		How can we have unity when we keep emphasizing diversity, pushing our differences, rather than our similarities?
We have so many groups, each pushing for THEIR OWN benefit, rather than America's benefit. We even have groups that advocate for CRIMINALS as champions of "liberty"!

And what is this "Personal Responsibility" you speak of? I thought everytime someone breaks the rules, it's because the rules are too arbitrary, rather than any failure to obey on the part of the rule-breaker!
Heck, I was just talking with some who believe if enough people break a law, that the LAW should be repealed or changed, not the criminals punished!
And yes, everyone, I am BACK!

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 9:24:52 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

How can we have unity when we keep emphasizing diversity, pushing our differences, rather than our similarities?
We have so many groups, each pushing for THEIR OWN benefit, rather than America's benefit. We even have groups that advocate for CRIMINALS as champions of "liberty"!

And what is this "Personal Responsibility" you speak of? I thought everytime someone breaks the rules, it's because the rules are too arbitrary, rather than any failure to obey on the part of the rule-breaker!
Heck, I was just talking with some who believe if enough people break a law, that the LAW should be repealed or changed, not the criminals punished!
And yes, everyone, I am BACK!



Welcome Back!!!!
Happy New Year!!

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 10:47:29 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

How can we have unity when we keep emphasizing diversity, pushing our differences, rather than our similarities?


Well, the problem is that we just don't have much in the way of similarity anymore, ever since we started letting Those People come into the country.

quote:

We have so many groups, each pushing for THEIR OWN benefit, rather than America's benefit. We even have groups that advocate for CRIMINALS as champions of "liberty"!


Of course, we could fix that by simply criminalizing advocacy, then harvesting the lot of them for their organs.

quote:

And what is this "Personal Responsibility" you speak of? I thought everytime someone breaks the rules, it's because the rules are too arbitrary, rather than any failure to obey on the part of the rule-breaker!


Maybe the rules aren't arbitrary ENOUGH. It's not like God didn't hand them out clean-and-simple to Moses... er Jesus... er Muhammed... er... ah... huh.

Well, fuck it. I say we go with Jesus, and then bomb the shit out of anyone that says Moses or Muhammed. Or Krishna. I mean, seriously. What the hell kind of name is Krishna? Or that Budda guy, Siddhara... sidhartha... siddownandshudduporwebombya, how's that for a name?

quote:

Heck, I was just talking with some who believe if enough people break a law, that the LAW should be repealed or changed, not the criminals punished!


Damn straight. If those Jews would have just taken their showers...

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:46:37 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		I hope to whatever supernatural entity you believe in that you're just joking.

We need to start being nationalistic again. Whoever comes in is fine, as long as they assimilate. If the benefits America provides aren't a good enough Payoff for them to join us WITHOUT trying to takeover, then they can find a country more suited to their tastes!

Uncontrolled immigration and our newfound "multiculturalism" bullshit removes any drive for them to assimilate.

Think of making Kool-Aid, but instead of pouring in a little at a time, and stirring it around, forcing it to become part of the whole, you just upend the container, and it becomes an unassimilated lump at the bottom of the container, presumably demanding concessions for its group?

Oddly, Teddy Roosevelt figured this out 101 years ago--WITHOUT computers! What is the excuse for the modern demagogues?

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/4/2010 8:52:35 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The thing about corporate taxes is, they aren't taxes imposed on corporations. Every nickel of them gets passed along to the buyer in the price of the goods and services those businesses provide. In the final analysis, corporate taxes are nothing more or less than a hidden tax on virtually everything we purchase, even the most basic necessities of life, and as such their impact is greatest on those who can least afford them. The setting of corporate tax rates is simply a decision of how much blood you can draw from people who have little to spare without ending up killing them and destroying the economy.

K.





Can the corolary to your position be demonstrated by looking at the past? Is it a fact that everytime corporate taxes declined (see chart on post #13) that prices fell by a similar amount,and stayed at that level by the coresponding time line?
Anyone who was a taxpayer/consumer during the time frame of the chart on post #13 will attest that the above did not happen.
So much for your "theory"
My theory is that corporations should be outlawed,but not one of the folks on here who are alwayse "pimping" being responsible for ones actions would agree with that proposal. Corporations are simply a way to avoid being personally responsible for ones actions.

T.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/4/2010 9:12:44 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

How can we have unity when we keep emphasizing diversity, pushing our differences, rather than our similarities?
We have so many groups, each pushing for THEIR OWN benefit, rather than America's benefit. We even have groups that advocate for CRIMINALS as champions of "liberty"!

And what is this "Personal Responsibility" you speak of? I thought everytime someone breaks the rules, it's because the rules are too arbitrary, rather than any failure to obey on the part of the rule-breaker!
Heck, I was just talking with some who believe if enough people break a law, that the LAW should be repealed or changed, not the criminals punished!
And yes, everyone, I am BACK!




It does not appear that you have learned much while you were gone.
Perhaps a primer in English grammar...learn what "diversity" means and then page on through and find out what unity means.

George Washington,John Adams,Thomas Jefferson et al were all convicted and sentenced criminals. Do you think they are not champions of liberty?

It would appear that you have the same problem with history as you have with English. Many of the significant changes in U.S. law, abolition of slavery,women's sufferage,repeal of prohibition, just to name a few were because of widespread civil disobedience.
Your problem seems to be twofold.
First your crushing load of self imposed ignorance.
Seccond your inability to distinguis between one set of circumstances and one you wish were the same.

T.

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 40
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