Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (Full Version)

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CERCKL -> Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 6:24:49 PM)

I experienced an interesting situation this weekend and I was not certain where I should post this...so here it is placed.
As of Sunday, I have been recognized by My lotus as her Master, her Owner...it happened more sudden than she expected and the decision on her part happened because of an incident on Sunday where she recognized Me as owning her, a change from Saturday when she was not certain...Well, because of her experiencing trouble from others both in r/l and online she had asked a Dom she knew to be her 'Protector' and He had been after her for some time to accept His collar, which she had refused...now He is pissed because He believes that she had no right to accept Another's collar with out His permission.
I am curious about the perspective of those on this post, though I do not always agree with what is written, I believe the majority are sincere in what they write...did I step on His toes? I realize this situation has bruised His ego but this was not intended as a direct slight on My part, in fact I had not known of her accepting His 'protection' until after the fact.
Thank you,
C



TheTopHat -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 7:19:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CERCKL

I experienced an interesting situation this weekend and I was not certain where I should post this...so here it is placed.
As of Sunday, I have been recognized by My lotus as her Master, her Owner...it happened more sudden than she expected and the decision on her part happened because of an incident on Sunday where she recognized Me as owning her, a change from Saturday when she was not certain...Well, because of her experiencing trouble from others both in r/l and online she had asked a Dom she knew to be her 'Protector' and He had been after her for some time to accept His collar, which she had refused...now He is pissed because He believes that she had no right to accept Another's collar with out His permission.
I am curious about the perspective of those on this post, though I do not always agree with what is written, I believe the majority are sincere in what they write...did I step on His toes? I realize this situation has bruised His ego but this was not intended as a direct slight on My part, in fact I had not known of her accepting His 'protection' until after the fact.
Thank you,
C


Sounds like a plot for a bad Mafia movie.  I suspect he overestimated the relationship with your new sub or alternatively she misrepresented it.  What I would consider key to you however is making sure she informs him in no uncertain terms that she doesn't wish to continue with any such nonsense.  If this is some sort of warped mentoring (something else that I could rant on for hours) it may help to point out to your sub the total lack of qualification as illustrated by this incident.

Hope it works out and you and your sub have many healthy, happy years!



starymists -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 7:29:18 PM)

Here is my 2 cents...if you are looking at strict kind of old school protocol, there are two protocol violations. Number one, a Dom that is providing protection shouldn't be looking to collar someone under his protection. Technically, he should help her screen people, teach her how to be safe, what questions to ask when checking references, that kind of thing. That being said, sometimes, in the course of such a relationship, the Dom and sub involved start to have feelings for one another, and by mutual agreement, they pursue a relationship in which he is no longer her protector but her Dom. But when a collar is offered and declined, that should be respected by the Dominant.
 
That being said, if someone has a Protector, Trainer, Mentor, it would be appropriate to make your intentions to collar known, and seek the blessing of the Protector. If that blessing is withheld, reasons should be given and it shouldn't be because he wants her for himself. If the reasons are legitimate, you work on those reasons and when they are resolved, then you seek permission a second time.
 
Thats just from my perspective, based on the old school model I was trained in. Others will have a different perspective based on how they were trained. Bottom line would be, do you think there's been a protocol breech and if so, how do you fix it?
 
Good luck!



truesub4u -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 7:35:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: starymists

Here is my 2 cents...if you are looking at strict kind of old school protocol, there are two protocol violations. Number one, a Dom that is providing protection shouldn't be looking to collar someone under his protection. Technically, he should help her screen people, teach her how to be safe, what questions to ask when checking references, that kind of thing. That being said, sometimes, in the course of such a relationship, the Dom and sub involved start to have feelings for one another, and by mutual agreement, they pursue a relationship in which he is no longer her protector but her Dom. But when a collar is offered and declined, that should be respected by the Dominant.
 
That being said, if someone has a Protector, Trainer, Mentor, it would be appropriate to make your intentions to collar known, and seek the blessing of the Protector. If that blessing is withheld, reasons should be given and it shouldn't be because he wants her for himself. If the reasons are legitimate, you work on those reasons and when they are resolved, then you seek permission a second time.
 
Thats just from my perspective, based on the old school model I was trained in. Others will have a different perspective based on how they were trained. Bottom line would be, do you think there's been a protocol breech and if so, how do you fix it?
 
Good luck!


Yep, this was how it was explained to me over 20 years ago.



Sensualips -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 7:37:52 PM)

I think you are off to a rocky start.  You "suddenly" own someone due to a choice she made as a reaction to some incident.  Further, she was supposedly under the "protection" of another and you were not told about this -- you, a person she trusts and is connected to enough to call Master?

IMO it is the submissive's responsibility to make anyone courting her aware of any existing relationships she intends to maintain or any protocol she has agreed to prior.  If she did not do this, it is her responsibility to correct the situation if possible. Or does the responsibility of owning her include fixing her mistakes?

Intended or not, clearly the Dom does feel his toes have been stepped on.  The questions is...do you care?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 7:53:29 PM)

I say give the sub a few weeks to sort out what she really feels and where she really wants to go on her own. She obviously got into one relationship wout making sure expectations were clear and how to proceed, I doubt you want to be the result of that possible next mistake.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 8:10:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips

I think you are off to a rocky start.  You "suddenly" own someone due to a choice she made as a reaction to some incident.  Further, she was supposedly under the "protection" of another and you were not told about this -- you, a person she trusts and is connected to enough to call Master?

IMO it is the submissive's responsibility to make anyone courting her aware of any existing relationships she intends to maintain or any protocol she has agreed to prior.  If she did not do this, it is her responsibility to correct the situation if possible. Or does the responsibility of owning her include fixing her mistakes?

Intended or not, clearly the Dom does feel his toes have been stepped on.  The questions is...do you care?


i completely agree with this.  No on Saturday, suddenly yes on Sunday - would that create questions in your mind about her readiness to be owned?  And why did she not tell you of this other relationship?  What were her reasons for not telling her "Protector," also?  Was she afraid he would say no?  Why? 

Lots of questions.  i do wish you luck.



Duncan -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 8:13:57 PM)

All is fair in love and war, and though not war I view a Sub as a form of love. With that said I dont care if he is your best friend. If she desires you over him then it doesnt matter what claim he thinks he has. Now you can try to find a polite and tactfull way to tell them but in the end its the same result and they will ahve to move on. Sub or no sub if she picks you over him, then she picks you.



NickInSLC -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 8:15:21 PM)

I think Starry put things very well.  I would just add, why did this girl even bother going to one person as a protector then become collared by another with zero feedback from said protector?  If she doesn't trust his judgement, she shouldn't be putting him in that position.

Unless you knew that he was her protector, you did no wrong.  However he probably feels differently.  That said, were I in your shoes, I would do my best to resolve the situation as soon as possible.  This is the kind of thing that will tend to bite you in the ass down the road.



CERCKL -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 8:17:14 PM)

IMO it is the submissive's responsibility to make anyone courting her aware of any existing relationships she intends to maintain or any protocol she has agreed to prior.  If she did not do this, it is her responsibility to correct the situation if possible. Or does the responsibility of owning her include fixing her mistakes?

Intended or not, clearly the Dom does feel his toes have been stepped on.  The questions is...do you care?

OK...not my responsibility to fix her mistakes but to be certain she fixes her own...I had contacted Him and told Him what had happened and He had responded that she needed to email Him and all would be fine if it was true...she did and He has been trying to call her and has emailed her since telling her she was wrong to do anything without Him knowing about it...I emailed Him again attempting to clarify...
As for, do I care??? I haven't given a good goddam what anyone has thought of Me, including family and relationship since I was 14 and certainly not people I haven't met...still I will take LA's advice and have her think this through before I allow her to progress...I think this situation was more of one of her trying to stop being hassled and Him wanting to own her and I don't need drama...we'll see.
Thank you again for the insight, it is always respected.
C



sweetnessforsir -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 8:20:38 PM)

ORIGINAL: starymists

quote:

Technically, he should help her screen people, teach her how to be safe, what questions to ask when checking references, that kind of thing. That being said, sometimes, in the course of such a relationship, the Dom and sub involved start to have feelings for one another/quote]
 
This really is a difficult part of this dynamic because the Mentor/Protector/Trainer is getting the disclosure and intimacy that should be given to a potential.  But--it is inevitable if He is to help her on her path (gender assigned strictly for my own situation).  Having been in this situation, it is difficult to keep the boundaries in place for both parties. 
 
quote:

and by mutual agreement, they pursue a relationship in which he is no longer her protector but her Dom. But when a collar is offered and declined, that should be respected by the Dominant.

The natural intimacy of disclosure is a very strong force.  But as starymists has pointed out, if one party does not want involvement it should be respected.  However, there are bound to be hurt feelings.  It is not always an easy situation.

quote:

That being said, if someone has a Protector, Trainer, Mentor, it would be appropriate to make your intentions to collar known, and seek the blessing of the Protector. If that blessing is withheld, reasons should be given and it shouldn't be because he wants her for himself. If the reasons are legitimate, you work on those reasons and when they are resolved, then you seek permission a second time.


This is difficut as well, but so important to keeping those boundaries in place.  If a sub is not comfortable discussing the progression of a relationship with a potential who is not a Protector/Mentor/Trainer, then there is evidence that she senses a shift in the dynamic.  It is not clear how this is best handled . . . my experience has not always worked out well . . . but then again, we are still friends.

quote:

Bottom line would be, do you think there's been a protocol breech and if so, how do you fix it?

 
The fixing is the hard part.  But also the important part.  Once a sub mentor of mine [;)] made clear to me how important the fixing of this type of breach was in the long run.  It is important.  It is important for many reasons.  The Protector was not in this alone .


Thanks for the reminder on all of this starymists.

s.



CERCKL -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 8:27:12 PM)

No on Saturday, suddenly yes on Sunday - would that create questions in your mind about her readiness to be owned?  And why did she not tell you of this other relationship?  What were her reasons for not telling her "Protector," also?  Was she afraid he would say no?  Why? 

The first part was a general defensive part of not wanting to get played and fall into another bad relationship, just as I was not certain I wanted one...basic human paranoia...as for the second I do not know but I WILL find out...again I believe that her 'protector' and she had different agendas and I have made several attempts to clarify this with him; on the other hand I cannot make him accept anything...
C

Again thanks for the input



BitaTruble -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 8:27:29 PM)

You're an adult, she's an adult. It sounds like you both got what you wanted. A protector isn't a King, Lord or Master who gets to hand down decisions to their subjects.  If she didn't consult with him, it's because she choose not to do so. Until someone is collared, they answer only to themselves, not a protector or anyone else. She didn't need his permission. He may not like it.. but, tough lumps. Sounds like he wanted her for himself and his jealousy is cropping up and this is just an excuse to be mad about something over which he had no control. Forget about him and concentrate on yourselves.  A new relationship has enough kinks to work out without worrying about outsiders and their bruised ego's.

Be happy.. be well.

Celeste



DragonNphoenix -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 9:36:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: starymists

Here is my 2 cents...if you are looking at strict kind of old school protocol, there are two protocol violations. Number one, a Dom that is providing protection shouldn't be looking to collar someone under his protection. Technically, he should help her screen people, teach her how to be safe, what questions to ask when checking references, that kind of thing. That being said, sometimes, in the course of such a relationship, the Dom and sub involved start to have feelings for one another, and by mutual agreement, they pursue a relationship in which he is no longer her protector but her Dom. But when a collar is offered and declined, that should be respected by the Dominant.
 
That being said, if someone has a Protector, Trainer, Mentor, it would be appropriate to make your intentions to collar known, and seek the blessing of the Protector. If that blessing is withheld, reasons should be given and it shouldn't be because he wants her for himself. If the reasons are legitimate, you work on those reasons and when they are resolved, then you seek permission a second time.
 
Thats just from my perspective, based on the old school model I was trained in. Others will have a different perspective based on how they were trained. Bottom line would be, do you think there's been a protocol breech and if so, how do you fix it?
 
Good luck!


Yuppers.... this is how my Master has trained me.  And what I thought when I read the first post.  BUT ~ My other thought... you did not know about the Protector until after you offered her your collar?  That, to me, is a breach of protocol on her part, not yours.  How could you discuss your intent with her Protector if you did not know that she had one?  That is my concern.  What else has she not told you???

1st Girl Phoenix



nslut4whtmaster -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/20/2006 9:56:05 PM)

quote:

BitaTruble
Until someone is collared, they answer only to themselves, not a protector or anyone else. She didn't need his permission.
Be happy.. be well.


i agree with what you have said here. my personal experience with the whole Protector/Mentor/Trainer situation is that it just gets in the way (or at least it has for me). Before i received my Master's collar, i had a Protector and a Mentor. Before placing me under a collar of consideration, my Master informed me that situation would not be needed anymore His decision had to do with the whole theory behind having two Masters, you just can't have that it has the potential to undermine the relationship that Y/you are trying to build.

peace and respect,
ns



MHOO314 -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/21/2006 5:11:14 AM)

Eons ago when I had a Mentor, He was very clear with Me---" I can teach, counsel, respond and ask questions, but it precludes Me from any emotional involvement beyond safety and protection"---I still follow those words today as I Protect and Mentor- I have also never taken a submissive under protection who was "safely seeing a Dom/me"---I too often ( as we have discussed here on the boards)--see that as a means of having one's cake or dallying with a submissive--IMHEO, that is not what it's all about--and though My student may ask Me about getting collared--at the end of the day the decision is for them to make, not Me. It would appear to Me, that He is jealous--I'd say--happy ending to the story and both of you move on--at the end of the day, people are still human.

BTW, Happiness in your new collaring!



BrianSenior -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/21/2006 7:48:28 AM)

I would be concerend as to why she didnt go to the protector about you, that is one of the reasons she should have a protector. Also why she didnt tell you about him so you could go to him and show your intentions. I was also shown the protocol like starymists and truesub. I feel that it is more for on line, then real time. I have offered more then a few on line collars just to protect the new submissive from predators that would not be for there best interest. Of course My communication with the new submissive was kept open so she would know what was said, the questions I asked and why. The time comes they know for them selves what to ask.. Any ways- ~BK~



starymists -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/21/2006 10:17:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CERCKL

IMO it is the submissive's responsibility to make anyone courting her aware of any existing relationships she intends to maintain or any protocol she has agreed to prior.  If she did not do this, it is her responsibility to correct the situation if possible. Or does the responsibility of owning her include fixing her mistakes?

Intended or not, clearly the Dom does feel his toes have been stepped on.  The questions is...do you care?

OK...not my responsibility to fix her mistakes but to be certain she fixes her own...I had contacted Him and told Him what had happened and He had responded that she needed to email Him and all would be fine if it was true...she did and He has been trying to call her and has emailed her since telling her she was wrong to do anything without Him knowing about it...I emailed Him again attempting to clarify...
As for, do I care??? I haven't given a good goddam what anyone has thought of Me, including family and relationship since I was 14 and certainly not people I haven't met...still I will take LA's advice and have her think this through before I allow her to progress...I think this situation was more of one of her trying to stop being hassled and Him wanting to own her and I don't need drama...we'll see.
Thank you again for the insight, it is always respected.
C


From a protocol stance, and once again, in the old school model that I know, anything I do as a submissive reflects back to my Dominant. Is it your responsibility to fix the problem? No. But, as you have said, it is your responsibility to ensure that she does something to address the problem.
 
In his role as her Protector, he has the responsibility to address the protocol breach with her. She was wrong to accept a collar without checking in. She was wrong not to tell you about the Protector before accepting the collar. Now that the bed has been made, the choice for the three of you is whether or not to sleep in that bed.
 
Two or three things being done wrong doesn’t make anyone right or wrong. A number of things could have happened including her not understanding the protocols that go along with having a Protector. It’s not about what people think of you either. I would suggest that beyond having her think through what happened, discussing, in depth and at length what happened to ensure that she knows her own mind, that she is submitting to you for the right reasons and that she accepted the collar for the right reasons. In my book, accepting a collar on the spur of the moment, based on activities that happened one day is a recipe for disaster, and I hate to see people get hurt.
 
Good luck!
 
~Tessa~



Sirandlittle1 -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/21/2006 10:32:31 AM)

I see two failures in communication have occured. The first to her protector about you. And being able to be assertive can be difficult for a sub.
Secondly, to you. In that she did not tell you of her protector.
(She needs some serious work on her open, honest communication skills. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I personally have found communication skill at a level required for D/s has been my biggest area of growth.)
As for protocol, who gives a shit. Feelings or chemistry have been strong enough for women to walk away from marriages, husbands, and visa versa since time began. 
If id lived my life by protocols, id still be married to my childrens father, and be buried alive. I went against protocol. It has its costs, as will hers.
You may feel that your trust in her honesty, will need to grow a little.
A little 'thinking' time, is perhaps a good idea for her. Maybe even writing a diary of all of her thoughts and feelings as a focus for your open exploration around the subject.
Personally, im very wary of the role of protectors. It often seems to not remain within the boundries id imagine. For some good, and not so altruistic reasons too. 



Submotive -> RE: Protection, Protocol and Ownership... (3/21/2006 12:47:01 PM)

When i first got involved in this lifestyle - a whole 8 months ago (ha ha) - i was bombarded with so-called "mentors". OY - These guys were just looking for someone to boss around and mess with. It didn't take me very long ~~winks~~ to realize i was being had.

i do have one main Mentor now - who is my same sex and neither of U/us are interested in the other in any way other than friendship and mentorship. This works well for me because i have someone with more experience than i to seek council with, but who has no hidden agenda and who is objective enough to hopefully call me on my BS.

A mentor is a teacher and confidante and sometimes a protector. If you take a class you are not required to sleep with your teacher, and if you are, something's wrong. i tend to view mentorship the same way.[;)]



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