RE: Need for less federal government? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:41:20 AM)

As amusing as i am sure you thought you were being, many parents are not discharged from hospitals without being given a course in infant CPR. the steps change once the infant turns into a toddler.




TheHeretic -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:45:25 AM)

Is that a Federal mandate, or a decision by the various states?




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:46:44 AM)

Neither. Hospital decisions, recommendations by the AMA, ANA and the Pediatric associations.




Moonhead -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:49:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

As amusing as i am sure you thought you were being, many parents are not discharged from hospitals without being given a course in infant CPR. the steps change once the infant turns into a toddler.

Actually, he may think he's being amusing by stressing that fuckwits have as much right to breed as everybody else, but frankly, I would love to see the government getting heavy over that. Spend some time working in a social services office and you wouldn't trust a lot of these people to look after a goldfish for ten minutes, never mind raise children.




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 6:55:16 AM)

Trust me, working L&D for as long as i did, i agree... some people should not be allowed to breed. But, until its mandated differently.. what ya gonna do?

If the government, at any level, makes something mandatory, and promotes it as a life saving tool, then i expect them to hold up that end of the agreement. 911 was mandatory when implemented. if i call 911, i dont expect to get a surgeon on the line. however, i do expect to talk to someone who can talk me through simple CPR and safety precautions. After all, nurses, Drs, ambulance drivers, emts, hell even life guards have this knowledge... someone trained to give CPR and holding a flip card should be able to talk anyone through that procedure.

I dont see this as rocket science.




Sanity -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 7:12:25 AM)


While we're at it, why doesn't the federal government require intensive training before allowing citizens to operate motor vehicles. Continued training as well, because things change over time. In my state you only have to pass a few simple tests to get or to renew your drivers license!

A part of the drivers license fee could be used to fund an army of bureaucrats whose only purpose would be to ensure that everyone who drives is thoroughly equipped to operate any vehicle ever made on any road there is, and can handle any emergency that could possibly arise. I say we need a ten year course just to get your license, minimum, and then a one year course after every five years on the road.

Think of it of how much safer we would all be!




pahunkboy -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 8:25:42 AM)

Frankly we are loosing volunteer firefighters- by endless requirements.


That means we then have LESS.

IMO- this needs to be decided at the county level. It might be a good idea- we just fired 2 911 workers for looking at porn online at work.

....as well as hoopla over our sherriff also looking at porn on tax payer time.

anytime you mandate something- there are extra costs.... and prices actually increase for stuff.

the results are iffy at best.

all politics is local.

let the locals decide what is best for them.  NOT Washington dictate what I must and mustnt do.,




Louve00 -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 9:12:41 AM)

I am away from my screen more than at my screen, but first off, servant: if your phone is disconnected, phone service is disconnected but you do still have a dial tone that you can dial 911 for.  I don't think its mandatory, but more a courtesy.  (and who knows, it may very well be mandatory, but I have forgotten to pay my bill and services were interuppted, but the dial tone remained.  (in fact, I was able to use that disconnected line to reach my phone company to pay my bill...I don't think they connect you to random numbers dialed.  I think its just 911 and possibly them for problems or whatever.  But tazzy is right there.

Getting back to the thread, I agree that there is way more to a 911 operator than just being a 'receptionist'.  This is why I feel they should be given at least the basic training to respond to certain emergencies.  While yes, the key factor is for the operator to notify and alert a responder team to get to the caller asap, if they have vital, basic information, it could save a life that may not be viable by the time the first responders do arrive.  They arent getting invasive.  It's not a matter of being afraid to attempt CPR, or afraid of repercussions of not doing it correctly.  Its just a matter of having information available to people who need to perform CPR on a victim who needs it until help arrives.  Or to be prepared to deal with any situation.  In plain english....give those 911 operators a detailed job description of how to handle any possible situation they may come across, as most jobs do have already.

And Sanity...I'm glad you're not the one in charge of driver license renewal [;)]  (but just in case you don't know, you can take certain tests that will qualify you to drive bigger vehicles.  Its called a CDL (Commercial Driver's License)




AnimusRex -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 10:21:50 AM)

First off, I am not sure why this would become a federal issue, as opposed to a state or local issue, since most 911 systems are locally operated.

However, what strikes me most on this, is how our political discussion become stagnated by our inability to see anything in any other terms than "rights", and mandates.

For instance, the debate revolves around whether we the people have a "right" to this or that, meaning that the federal Gov't has an obligation to do it.

The points made about how far we want to go inprotecting people from their own risks are valid- posing something like CPR as an obligation of the State, and thereby removing it from the list of tools responsible parents should have, seems obviously foolish. But by the same token, standing with crossed arms and insisting that CPR operators have no responsibility to provide aid, seems like legalistic parsing, like the urban myth of an attorney who stood and watched someone die because he was afraid of getting sued.

Isn't it possible to frame things in terms other than rights and mandates? For example, can we see 911 as a public good that we elect to provide, and pay for by taxing ourselves- not because there is a Constitutional right to it, but simply because it makes good sense?

Couldn't we see items of public good- like public sewers, public fire protection, 911 emergency dispatch- and yes, perhaps public emergency CPR advice- as something we can develop and provide to ourselves by way of local government agencies?
In this view, the debate would simply revolve around mundane issues like whether it could be accomplished, or if it would need additional tax revenue to provide, and if that tax burden would be worth the value provided.

Instead of raising the Outrage meter to Defcon 5, and seeing it as an existential battle between Capitalism and Socialism.




InvisibleBlack -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 10:40:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I am away from my screen more than at my screen, but first off, servant: if your phone is disconnected, phone service is disconnected but you do still have a dial tone that you can dial 911 for.  I don't think its mandatory, but more a courtesy... 


In most states the availabilty of the 911 Emergency Service is mandatory. Your local carrier must pump enough electricity through the wire to power your phone and provide you service to connect your 911 dialed call. If you disable this service is some way (like tearing out the wiring in your home), the local provider is not obligated to replace it, however.

I believe the underlying issue of the training of 911 operators is more of an efficiency issue than anything else. Their entire function is to route the call to the appropriate service as quickly as possible, not to address the emergency themselves. The sheer variety of problems that can arise and the complexity of the multiple possible responses would make appropriately training a 911 operator a monstrous task. We do not have one all-purpose emergency response force, we have trained specialists (police, fire fighters, search & rescue, EMTs, etc.). The function of 911 is to connect the person in need with the correct emergency services unit.

Sometimes this design will result in a tragedy, as with the infant in the soccer net, but from an overall persepctive, it's viewed as more efficient (and thus saving more lives) in the aggregate.




pahunkboy -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 11:18:28 AM)

It is hard for me to picture this OP.

Just about every job I have had in PA has REQUIRED  CPR, and first aid certification.   (Hotel, Americore, group homes)

for various reasons- the employers want a work force who can basic function in an emergency.

it really is not rocket science either.  

...despite this- I hesitate at more regulations from Washington.




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 11:21:13 AM)

I tend to agree that a 9-1-1 operator should have the training and knowledge to talk a caller thru' CPR, Heimlich, defibrilator use, etc. But I can just image the disclaimer he/she would have to read prior to giving any advice or instructions:

"Ma'am, I will be happy to talk you through the process of giving CPR to your son, but first, I need to tell inform you that any such procedure, if performed by an untrained individual, may result in additional complications and the possible loss of life. Therefore, you must you agree to hold me, the office you have called, the village, county, and state blameless in the event that such instruction are not helpful, or in fact make the situation worse. If you understand the risks involved and still wish to proceed I need you to respond with "yes I understand the risks and agree to hold the emergency services blameless for my actions".

By the time the operator gets through the disclaimer, either the victim would have died or the EMT's would have arrived.

I wrote this with tongue planted firmly in cheek, however, the week before x-mas, Toys-R-Us ran a TV ad for some sort of 4-hour sale wherein they showed a clock with its hands spinning. There was a disclaimer on screen stating "clock motion enhanced for dramatic effect". So don't be too sure that a caller, who screws-up CPR becasue he/she didn't understand the instructions given by the 9-1-1 operator, wouldn't find a maggot - sorry, lawyer - to sue everyone involved.

I'd like to think that emergency service personnel have some sort of indemnity for their actions, but I suspect they don't. I don't think you can sue the fire department for not putting out your house fire fast enough and I'm pretty sure I can't sue the police for not preventing crime (nevermind the "serve and protect" logo - it's meaningless).

~Dave




Louve00 -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 11:32:26 AM)

Agreed.  But, if it were my child, and I didn't know how to do CPR or what to do for my child, and I called 911, frantically, repeatedly telling the operator I needed help and what should I do...and the answer was silence...or stay calm, and my child died, I'd sue.  Which would mean finding out what office was taking the call, what their procedures were to handle a situation and my lawyer would go from there.  I don't know if I'd win or lose.  If I lost, I'd most likely get on a bandwagon and look to change something (thats how MADD was born, btw).  If I won, I'd bet procedures would be changed in more than just my district.




servantforuse -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 1:58:39 PM)

You must have heard of the group DAMM...Drinkers Against Mad Mothers.




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 2:20:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

First off, I am not sure why this would become a federal issue, as opposed to a state or local issue, since most 911 systems are locally operated.

However, what strikes me most on this, is how our political discussion become stagnated by our inability to see anything in any other terms than "rights", and mandates.

For instance, the debate revolves around whether we the people have a "right" to this or that, meaning that the federal Gov't has an obligation to do it.

The points made about how far we want to go inprotecting people from their own risks are valid- posing something like CPR as an obligation of the State, and thereby removing it from the list of tools responsible parents should have, seems obviously foolish. But by the same token, standing with crossed arms and insisting that CPR operators have no responsibility to provide aid, seems like legalistic parsing, like the urban myth of an attorney who stood and watched someone die because he was afraid of getting sued.

Isn't it possible to frame things in terms other than rights and mandates? For example, can we see 911 as a public good that we elect to provide, and pay for by taxing ourselves- not because there is a Constitutional right to it, but simply because it makes good sense?

Couldn't we see items of public good- like public sewers, public fire protection, 911 emergency dispatch- and yes, perhaps public emergency CPR advice- as something we can develop and provide to ourselves by way of local government agencies?
In this view, the debate would simply revolve around mundane issues like whether it could be accomplished, or if it would need additional tax revenue to provide, and if that tax burden would be worth the value provided.

Instead of raising the Outrage meter to Defcon 5, and seeing it as an existential battle between Capitalism and Socialism.


Master Animus

first, im not proposing that the federal government step in and mandate who each state runs their emergency system. However, each state runs their own Nursing Board, EMT licensure, Medical Board, Cosmetology board, ect. Under each of these are the mandatory requirements to hold licensure. Most jobs hiring for these positions require the minimum mandatory requirements, including CPR.

My hope, on this end, will be a standardization of requirements for this position. These are people the public turn too for help, even police are trained in CPR and basic life saving skills. It would not take much to train 911 operators to actually perform CPR, and hand them a flip chart to aide callers. As i have pointed out earlier, the good samaritan laws would protect them from the undesired effects in the field... very much like you would be protected if you ran across a choking victim on the street and decided to lend assistance. Some states even make it illegal to deny assistance... you can be found at fault for not helping at all.

the second half of the OP was about where the money was going that our taxes pay for. Seems in 18 states the money goes to other things besides the sustaining of the system. Something else that needs to be addressed. Here everyone thinks the tax goes to 911 emergency services... they do not. seems its another pot for politicians to dip into.




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 2:23:06 PM)

~FR

I think i see the source of confusion, so allow me to clear this up. Many have said they want, desire and demand less federal government intervention in their lives. Yet, as this story has shown, the states are either ill-equipped, or just dont give a shit, to deal with issues on their own. Yes, they should run their own states, but who is really running the show? Seems politicians at state levels are still dipping into pots they should leave alone, and systems are run at, again, bare minimums at the risk of public safety.

Is this the state govenrment you desire over federal intervention?




InvisibleBlack -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 4:33:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Is this the state govenrment you desire over federal intervention?


Given FEMA's performance in recent years, I don't think you can claim Federal intervention would necessarily result in an improvement.




tazzygirl -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 4:50:49 PM)

FEMA was ran by a man who had no business running it. Before katrina, it ran extremely well.




Louve00 -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 4:50:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You must have heard of the group DAMM...Drinkers Against Mad Mothers.


Hehe...nope, I sure haven't.  Did their cause change anything? [8D]




servantforuse -> RE: Need for less federal government? (1/9/2010 5:34:28 PM)

Well Louve00, If your phone company provides a dial tone and 911 service after your phone line is disconnected I would love to know just what company that is.




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