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Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 11:46:02 AM

LadyEllen

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"Islam will dominate the world - freedom can go to hell" read the banner held high today by the five British Muslims released on a two year conditional discharge after being found guilty of insulting and abusing British troops returning from the wars overseas during a march through Luton last year.

As the crowds cheered to honour and welcome the troops, a small group of traditionally dressed Muslims held placards calculated to insult and offend, but it was the words they shouted, despite the attempts of the public to drown them out for which they were today sentenced.

One wonders why, if they hold freedom to be so worthless, they ought not to have been imprisoned, especially as, during an interview outside the Court, they maintained that they were in no way deterred from speaking out in future in like manner, describing British troops as rapists, murderers and baby killers.

E

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 11:56:24 AM

Kirata

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I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the best and most cost-effective weapon against these over-excited wackos might be to spray their enclaves at regular intervals with an aerosol of Valium.

K.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 12:49:24 PM

pahunkboy

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some of this is connected to that they don't believe in interest on money.

the money changers own it all..... well almost ---

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 1:21:15 PM

kdsub

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I am surprised they were imprisoned for exercising free speech..that would not have happened in the US..Ironic that our boys and girls are fighting for the rights of people like them.

Butch

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 1:26:50 PM

LadyEllen

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http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/aposburn+in+hellapos+muslim+protesters+guilty/3496537

They werent imprisoned Butch. The story is above, the charges were under public order legislation. There is a big difference between freedom of expression "I disagree with the war" and this stuff.

Had it been a bunch of neo-nazis saying about Jews what this happy bunch of campers were saying about the troops I dont think many would be sympathetic to their cause.

E

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 1:41:48 PM

kdsub

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Oh believe me I am not sympatric and doubt many are...we just can't pick and choose what is free and what is not...well within reason anyway. Just like those nuts that picket burials of our killed soldiers claiming it is because of the new policy on gays in our military.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 3:53:44 PM

DCWoody

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I've been saying for a while now that most muslim 'terrorist sympathisers' are essentially whiny teenager types blaming 'the system' because they can't afford a ps3 and an xbox.

@Freedom of speech, yeah that's the main difference in those sort of laws between us and uk, you're not allowed to be a complete cock to 'ordinary' people....to paraphrase.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 5:36:38 PM

Silence8

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Maybe they were being ironic.

By sentencing them, isn't freedom in fact going to hell?

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 6:11:17 PM

TheHeretic

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And people go and get offended when I ask about freedom of speech in Canada...

The answer to free speech used so badly is more speech, and the judgement and reactions (within legal limits) of those who hear what such shitbags have to say. I'm curious if they have come under any condemnation within their own community for such vile behavior, or if the injustice of their imprisonment has made "victims" of them.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 6:13:45 PM

PyrotheClown

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They were charged for hounding returning soldiers...hmmm
hey, does that mean we can do something bout that westboro baptist church

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 8:53:16 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The answer to free speech used so badly is more speech, and the judgement and reactions (within legal limits) of those who hear what such shitbags have to say.

...agreed. The issue is what constitutes a legal limit. If i say something that directly leads to an illegal act then surely i have abused the right to free speech. The problem is defining what is legal and what is not.

It's not as cut and dried as you make out Rich.....and the US is hardly the land of free speech anyway, just the illusion of it. Canada and the UK consider inflammatory language a problem as, especially in the latter, such speech has lead to illegal and shameful actions. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 8:57:47 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am surprised they were imprisoned for exercising free speech..that would not have happened in the US..Ironic that our boys and girls are fighting for the rights of people like them.

Butch

i actually agree with you. And its only ONE of the reasons i love my Country, This Country, SO much! Freedom isn't free, but its so very sweet.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 9:02:50 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
the US is hardly the land of free speech anyway, just the illusion of it.

Could you clarify what you mean by this, Phil? As I'm reading it, I have to disagree in the strongest of terms. We have our individual state variations of course, and there are always skirmishes along the fringe, but I don't think that is what you mean.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 10:22:54 PM

DCWoody

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Maybe they were being ironic.

By sentencing them, isn't freedom in fact going to hell?

I think you overestimate their intelligence.

@Heretic, nobody thinks there is any injustice of their imprisonment.....you're not allowed to go to a funeral of someone you've never met and try your best to upset the mourners, I don't know of anyone over here who thinks that's a silly rule, and we're quite keen on the whole free speech thing. There are legal limits over there too I know.

And everybody thinks they're twats yes.....they occupy a similar niche to the 11/9 conspiracy nuts IMO....mostly not that bright, persecution complex, accusations of near insane and often contradictory conspiracies, likely to accuse government & military of being murderers etc. The differences being that the people egging them on are fundamental islamic types trying to do gods will, rather than people in it for the money....and some chance of them getting mixed up in terrorism....though usually not very dangerously. Just a personal comparison that though.

(in reply to Silence8)

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 10:30:39 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

you're not allowed to go to a funeral of someone you've never met and try your best to upset the mourners,

Google "Westboro Baptist Church," Woody. We Americans are free to do precisely that. Most of our nonsense restrictions are regarding sex and dirty words broadcast on the public airwaves, or how nude a dancer can be in club that serves alcohol.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/11/2010 10:37:57 PM

DCWoody

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Yes, I am aware you are allowed to. That was my point, that we're not...and we're rather glad of it. I think....though I could be wrong, that the 'causing distress' law over here and the tighter restrictions on tv/media in general over there are the only major differences as far as 'freedom of speech' laws go....although cultural differences seem to be significant.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/12/2010 12:09:14 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Could you clarify what you mean by this, Phil? As I'm reading it, I have to disagree in the strongest of terms. We have our individual state variations of course, and there are always skirmishes along the fringe, but I don't think that is what you mean.

...happy to oblige.

The answer comes in two parts.

The first part you yourself referred to in a later post.
"Most of our nonsense restrictions are regarding sex and dirty words broadcast on the public airwaves"
In large part there are bizarre and nonsensical restrictions on the type of language useable in public settings. i freely admit it's a small thing, but if you're going to suggest that the US is the land of free speech because people are free to taunt mourners at a funeral the very least you can do is let the word 'fuck' be used on tv.

The second part i'm fairly sure you'll disagree with, but here goes. Free speech is only free when speech is free of restriction. This doesn't just mean you're free to say something, it also means you're free of consequences. In the US there are consequences to speaking certain things. Try going to a local bar and then, in a loud voice, suggest that the US should take responsibility for creating the climate in which Islamic terrorism occured. Think there'd be a sanction applied to you? Probably.

Now, you'd quite rightly point out that speech always has consequences. i'd agree. and this is why i say that there is only an illusion of free speech in the USA. Because speech always has consequences, it is always conditional. In effect there is no such thing as free speech. It's an impossibility. The USA is the only country that tries to maintain an illusion that speech can be free.

Hope that clarifies my position Rich. i always enjoy debating with you :)

(in reply to TheHeretic)

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/12/2010 1:08:03 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am surprised they were imprisoned for exercising free speech..that would not have happened in the US..Ironic that our boys and girls are fighting for the rights of people like them.

Butch

Free speech is not a right to say anything anywhere. They would have to apply for a permit to hold a protest like anyone else.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/12/2010 1:12:02 AM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

The second part i'm fairly sure you'll disagree with, but here goes. Free speech is only free when speech is free of restriction. This doesn't just mean you're free to say something, it also means you're free of consequences. In the US there are consequences to speaking certain things. Try going to a local bar and then, in a loud voice, suggest that the US should take responsibility for creating the climate in which Islamic terrorism occured. Think there'd be a sanction applied to you? Probably. Well you might get boots applied to you. And possibly a disorderly conduct charge.

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RE: Freedom can go to hell! - 1/12/2010 7:13:27 AM

slavekal

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Ahhh...what a wonderful and peaceful religion.

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