RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (Full Version)

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DomImus -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 3:51:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Apparently that's socialism and unconstitutional. Not sure how that argument works, but it seems to be one of the American right's stock lines to rebuff almost anything.


It may well be unconstitutional now but the document can be amended as needed. I don't see how this is necessarily socialism and if it is our income tax system is socialist - we tax based on the ability to pay.. Nobody is compelled to pay these income adjusted fines unless they opt to break the speed limit. Although with speed detection technology being what it is (the old 35 mph tree advertisement) I can see lots of potential for abuse.



Politesub53 -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 4:06:45 PM)

The driver concerned was originally fined a lot less. He tried to appeal claiming diplomatic immunity, not once but twice. Thats why the fine was increased. He can still appeal to the Swiss Supreme Court.

Taking a drivers license is no deterrent, either a large financial fine or a long prison sentence is.



Silence8 -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 5:32:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Proportionate to the offence, not proportionate to the offender.

E


Amen.



Why is that amen worthy?

The original argument was that the 'proportion' of the penalty didn't affect the rich the way it does the poor-to-average. That is in no way conflicting with the law's being proportionate to the offense as well. Lady E is conflating two unrelated properties. It's like, you can always have two proportions.

Moving on, though, why do you really care about this issue? What's the motivation behind your position?



LadyEllen -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 5:42:03 PM)

Silence8 - the Swiss can do what they like. The EU human rights legislation meanwhile apparently forbids a practice of justice that varies penalties according to the status of the offender. For my part I couldnt care less what some idiot in a new Ferrari gets fined if its more proportional to his standing, but the law appears clear that this is not permitted. Being wealthy is not an offence nor an aggravating factor in law.

E



Silence8 -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 6:24:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Silence8 - the Swiss can do what they like. The EU human rights legislation meanwhile apparently forbids a practice of justice that varies penalties according to the status of the offender. For my part I couldnt care less what some idiot in a new Ferrari gets fined if its more proportional to his standing, but the law appears clear that this is not permitted. Being wealthy is not an offence nor an aggravating factor in law.

E


Okay, tell you what -- I'm all about equality before the law, so this is what we should do:

1) Scrap the progressive traffic fines. Sorry, Brain, Switzerland.

2) Eliminate private legal representation -- we can only be equal before the law if the law is equally available to all citizens regardless of economic, social, and political preferences.

Otherwise, talk and talk, and it's all just hot air.



LadyEllen -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 6:37:41 PM)

The legislation provides for all defendants to have access to representation in criminal cases. Mind you, the UK may be in breach of this given the state of legal aid lately and its unavailability to almost anyone. But then anyone can defend a criminal case regardless of qualification, so you dont need a lawyer as such anyway, however unwise that might be. 

In civil cases you will find many lawyers very willing to take them on for you as long as you have a reasonable chance of winning and/or take out an insurance policy to cover legal fees and costs if you dont. In many instances you dont need qualified representation in civil cases either, although here the discretion of the Court has to be appealed to allow an unqualified representative - apart from certain types of case, permission is often granted particularly when it is a matter of access to justice.

In both criminal and civil law, it isnt the law itself that is all that complex - its the procedures and practice directions that are.

E



tazzygirl -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 6:52:59 PM)

The point is that as long as you have money, you can get out of most anything.... especially a traffic offence. when someone who is poor can get the same legal representation as someone making 100k a year, then i would consider the system equal. as it stands, a 250 dollar fine for someone speeding, plus points, would break most people's wallets... but for someone driving the porches, it wont make even a dent.



DCWoody -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 6:55:28 PM)

I have to side with silences point, there would not be cheap lawyers and fucking expensive lawyers if there wasn't a difference in the quality of said lawyers....and I don't think the difference is that the expensive ones smile at you and buy you lunch. It is a massive failing in the western legal system IMO.



LadyEllen -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 7:00:25 PM)

Agreed Tazzy - this aint my position, in fact I think scaling fines would be a good idea, but the law appears to say its not permitted. Again, being wealthy is not an offence and nor is it an aggravating factor, so its difficult to see what the justification should be to impose fines that are disproportionate to the offence and based on the status of the offender rather than the nature of the offence.

There is an argument about high priced lawyers of course, but the system doesnt recognise that one lawyer is better than another - they are all qualified the same in the eyes of the Courts, whose mission is to reach judgment on the facts presented not on the relative hourly rates of counsel. It is by no means the case that the wealthy get away with crimes on the basis of their choice of lawyer, albeit it may be that a particular lawyer specialising in a particular area may have greater knowledge and experience to draw on in presenting a case for his client - which is perfectly in order - as compared to a public prosecutor lawyer who has to be jack of all trades.

E



kdsub -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 7:28:12 PM)

Good idea...should add parking tickets as well

Butch



tazzygirl -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 7:29:30 PM)

Actually, E, i can see it being an aggravating factor in that the richer you are, the more you are likely to push that envelope because, frankly, you can afford to push it. 250 dollars plus points is enough to deter someone like me from pushing that line, while someone making 100k a year may think.. eh... whats 250 dollars?



thornhappy -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/12/2010 8:19:26 PM)

Not sure how many read the article, but's here some more info:

"In the latest Swiss case, the court took into account the man’s history of similar offenses, the high speed with which he drove through a small village (60 miles — or 97 kilometers — an hour, nearly twice the 30 mph (50 kph limit), and his estimated personal wealth of over $20 million.

“The accused unscrupulously and without obvious reason, probably out of pure desire for speed, used a powerful vehicle to break elementary traffic rules,” the court said, noting that the man could have risked the lives of pedestrians and other drivers.


Thomas Hansjakob, a prosecutor in the nearby city of St. Gallen, said the average driver is likely to get a more modest fine of several thousand Swiss francs (dollars).

“I think the man in the pub will get that this guy is only paying so much because he’s rich, so it won’t necessarily scare off others,” he said. “But this is a signal for other rich people. We’ve had a real problem with wealthy foreigners hiring cars and conducting races on Swiss roads.”


Last year a court sentenced six men from Hong Kong to fines of up to 95,000 francs after the men buzzed through Switzerland in hired Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Aston Martins and Audis at speeds of up to 142 miles (229 kilometers) an hour.


In a separate case, a Frenchman was fined 70,000 francs after being caught on a highway doing 151 miles (243 kilometers) an hour."



luckydawg -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/13/2010 12:45:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

As much as I would love to point at the Swiss as the guilty party, the system is widely used in Germany, not only where it comes to traffic penalties.
The so called "Tagessatz" is an instrument used in the German legal system. Fines in the German criminal law are not imposed as an absolute amount, but as a number of Tagessätze. The amount one has to pay for each Tagessatz is determined by the money a person earns. One Tagessatz being the earnings of one month divided by 30.





Using the system calamity describes would get around any charter issues, and actualy seems like a pretty good idea. Though I guess people with Black market income would get a break, since it would not get counted



calamitysandra -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/13/2010 4:15:34 AM)

Luckydawg, if a judge believes that the stated income is not all there is, he can estimate the real amount. (of course that can be appealed, but then, what can not?)


And yes, framing it that way, giving everybody the am amount of Tagessätze to pay, only varying the worth of a Tagssatz according to the income, gets around those issues nicely.



pahunkboy -> RE: Massive traffic fines for Europe's super rich (1/13/2010 5:41:36 AM)

-->  excerpt
Back to the subject at hand: Sometimes? That's rich! Back in 2004, the Philadelphia Daily News reported that troopers had clocked Rendell's Cadillac at speeds of more than 100 MPH nine times along the Pennsylvania Turnpike. A State Trooper behind the wheel doing 35 over the limit! That is five points and a departmental hearing and sanctions under Section 1538(d). Tisk tisk./snip

this would be the PA Governor.

http://www.pahighways.com/blog/archives/20-Rendell-to-Media-I-Cant-Drive-55.html




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