RE: Too Independent?

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CarrieO -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 8:03:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss please note - this post is written as "you" the general you (not to anyone in particular). Also, although you ask this question to "dominant" women and to men attracted to them, I have responded to the question as to anyone - people in general. Hello All, Hello Carrie, Too independent - yes, there is such a thing. When it causes someone distress or is getting in the way of living their life as they wish, then yes it is possible. The fact that you are asking this question would suggest that on some level you are considering whether it is an issue. (Not saying it IS, just saying that it is something you are curious about). All too often, our USA, individual-driven, capitalistic mindset formed society tells us we can have it all, be it all, do it all. Well that's just not true. We are pushed to have willpower (in ourselves) to take control (by ourselves), just do it (by ourselves). While this part of our culture can be freeing, it can also be stifling. It ignores the fact that people are social creatures, people NEED each other, people are interdependent (whether we wish to admit it or not).* Agreed! It's that who process of understanding by being interdependent you are losing your independence...just allowing it to grow and develop. Take for example the food you eat. I choose this example because it is something we all must have. You independently buy it at the grocery store. You independently work your job to have the money to buy it. You independently cook it and serve it and enjoy it. You independently clean up the dishes. Very independent. Right? Mmmmm not really. What of the farmer who grows the food? The stock person who moves it from the box to the shelf? The cashier? The persons who built the car you drive to get you to and from the store? The person who put the stove into your house? Built the house for that matter... the person who made the pan and dishes you use, pressed the oil that you cook with, gathered the salt and the herbs? Suddenly, all these people have touched your simple little dinner, they have all contributed. Whether you wish to believe it, you are not in fact independent. We are all interdependent whether we admit it or not. Independence is an illusion. Ohhh, you couldn't have chosen a better example...for me atleast! However, I don't see independence as an illusion...just a step on the road towards a goal. The thing is, in this society, we are encouraged to believe the illusion of independence and to buy into our own importance. What we have been taught is to look out for number one! Be the captain of your own ship! Do your own thing! We have been taught to NOT TRUST others to care for us, to be honest, to help. We have been taught that we should trust only ourselves (If you want to get something done, do it yourself). Bullshit. We are a part of society, groups, communities. We are interdependent - emotionally, physically, intellectually. This is true and something that can take a long time to acknowledge. The question becomes not about independence, but about relationships. Who is worthy and has proven themselves to be trusting enough that one can be interdependent with them? That is a whole other ball game. It is a question we are not encouraged to ask or to probe or to have high standards about. We are burned over and over again until we buy into the "independence" illusion. We are not encouraged to have high expectations of others, to believe in them, to hold them to their word... and our world gets smaller and smaller. And cynicism worms its way into our lives. True, how many times have we heard, even here on the forums, people telling others to not have too many expectations. It is in requiring others to be honorable that we find out who is worthy of our interdependence. Because we don't as a society hold people to standards, our world is becoming more and more fractured and broken. Your question is merely a symptom of that brokenness (imo). There is in fact NOT a possibility of being too independent - not the way our society is set up anyway. There is, however, the possibility of buying into society's illusion and finding dissonance there in opposition with one's own humanity. In the end, too independent, to me, seems like a way of saying "I have not found people trustworthy." And that says that one needs to set high standards, expect - even demand - them, and walk away if they are not met. And the day will come when the standards are in fact met and in that moment true interdependence can be experienced. Again...agreed! An excellent thread, excellent question. Best, sunshine I love your input and insight into this question...of course, I am the president of your fan club for a reason![;)]

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 9:27:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss All too often, our USA, individual-driven, capitalistic mindset formed society tells us we can have it all, be it all, do it all. Well that's just not true. We are pushed to have willpower (in ourselves) to take control (by ourselves), just do it (by ourselves). While this part of our culture can be freeing, it can also be stifling. It ignores the fact that people are social creatures, people NEED each other, people are interdependent (whether we wish to admit it or not). Take for example the food you eat. I choose this example because it is something we all must have. You independently buy it at the grocery store. You independently work your job to have the money to buy it. You independently cook it and serve it and enjoy it. You independently clean up the dishes. Very independent. Right? Mmmmm not really. What of the farmer who grows the food? The stock person who moves it from the box to the shelf? The cashier? The persons who built the car you drive to get you to and from the store? The person who put the stove into your house? Built the house for that matter... the person who made the pan and dishes you use, pressed the oil that you cook with, gathered the salt and the herbs? Suddenly, all these people have touched your simple little dinner, they have all contributed. Whether you wish to believe it, you are not in fact independent. We are all interdependent whether we admit it or not. Independence is an illusion. I think for the broader philosophy of independence what you wrote here is on the mark. I took Carrie's post to mean independent as free from another person's authority or support in a personal relationship. On that basis I see nothing wrong with independence whatsoever. In fact, I think it's important for a dominant female to be independent in that way. The thing that's important to me is she doesn't confuse independent with aloofness.

thetammyjo -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 9:34:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder The thing is..men like to feel needed. I think people in general like to feel needed. The men who are approaching you probably feel that because you can do everything on your own that you basically have no need or use for a man in your life. I've run across this numerous times. My solution? Make him feel needed. Let him do things for you occasionally, tell him how much he's needed and in what ways, show him just how much you desire him. There's nothing wrong with being vulnerable sometimes...even for a Domme. DING DING DING Exactly. We like to feel wanted and needed both regardless of our roles. I know where the OP is standing in part because I've always struggled with letting people do things for me or needing people to do things for me. Asking, demanding, ordering, oh, that was fairly easy but admitting I could really use some help required a philosophical and mental adjustment for me that we are talking about in the book we are working on.

CarrieO -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 10:31:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac I took Carrie's post to mean independent as free from another person's authority or support in a personal relationship. On that basis I see nothing wrong with independence whatsoever. In fact, I think it's important for a dominant female to be independent in that way. The thing that's important to me is she doesn't confuse independent with aloofness. That last part, the underlined sentence, is something I, personally, have gotten mixed messages about from submissive men. "I want you to not need me but I still want to be needed" is something I've been told which, to be honest, makes no sense to me. I think many men like the idea of an aloof Mistress but when faced with it in a LTR, they balk. The old "be careful what you wish for" saying.

CarrieO -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 10:36:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo We like to feel wanted and needed both regardless of our roles. Indeed...this is healthy, in my opinion. I know where the OP is standing in part because I've always struggled with letting people do things for me or needing people to do things for me. Asking, demanding, ordering, oh, that was fairly easy but admitting I could really use some help required a philosophical and mental adjustment for me that we are talking about in the book we are working on. Excellent point...especially the underlined part. I'm looking forward to your book and I hope you let us here on CM know when it's available.

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 3:07:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CarrieO quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac I took Carrie's post to mean independent as free from another person's authority or support in a personal relationship. On that basis I see nothing wrong with independence whatsoever. In fact, I think it's important for a dominant female to be independent in that way. The thing that's important to me is she doesn't confuse independent with aloofness. That last part, the underlined sentence, is something I, personally, have gotten mixed messages about from submissive men. "I want you to not need me but I still want to be needed" is something I've been told which, to be honest, makes no sense to me. I think many men like the idea of an aloof Mistress but when faced with it in a LTR, they balk. The old "be careful what you wish for" saying. Oh yes. There are mixed messages out there, without a doubt, and your last line is astute. I can only speak for myself on this, though I bet other men feel the same way: a woman who is independent and strong is ideal. Fierceness and coldness and even greed, to a lesser or greater degree feeds the psychology behind the dynamic. Detachment and isolation isn't so "hot" though. It's not that I need her to need me. I don't want her to need me, really. That's actually not very attractive to me, personally. I do want to know she likes to dominate. I like to know she has a real desire to make me need her emotionally, and at the same time, not be afraid to show she's human.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 4:04:03 PM)
- FR - I skimmed the answers and saw a mix of Yes and No. I'm going to say maybe. And the reason is that the word "Too" is very subjective. Too independant for who? For yourself, for them? Of course Too independant can exist for someone, it's all a question of equilibrium. When I was younger, I was so independant that I did not let anyone get close to me. I've been accused of this many times. It is most definitely a defense mechanism, a guard to not get hurt. But it also drove some amazing people away. A very simple example is that I would never, ever let a man pay my way. I was a strong independant woman. I was once told by a man that I liked very much that he couldn't see me anymore because I took away the pleasure he had of doing nice things for me. That really knocked me out and got me thinking long and hard about what was important to me. I think what you need is an exercise of self-reflection. Has your independance driven away people who you wished would have stayed? If your answer is no, that those who left just were too insecure to handle you, then fine, you're not too independant. But if your answer is yes, take a look to see where you might soften up the edges just a little. There is no reason that you might not, sometimes with someone you care and trust, let yourself be just a wee bit vulnerable :-) - LA

MissAnimus -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 7:31:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder The thing is..men like to feel needed. I think people in general like to feel needed. The men who are approaching you probably feel that because you can do everything on your own that you basically have no need or use for a man in your life. I've run across this numerous times. My solution? Make him feel needed. Let him do things for you occasionally, tell him how much he's needed and in what ways, show him just how much you desire him. There's nothing wrong with being vulnerable sometimes...even for a Domme. I agree with this except instead of "needed" I use the word "wanted". It is clear to my partner that I can live independently but I don't want to. Revealing my desires makes me vulnerable without diminishing my ability to do things (everything) on my own. I expect the same thing from my partner. I don't want him to need me, I want him to want me.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 7:41:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika - FR - I skimmed the answers and saw a mix of Yes and No. I'm going to say maybe. And the reason is that the word "Too" is very subjective. Too independant for who? For yourself, for them? Of course Too independant can exist for someone, it's all a question of equilibrium. When I was younger, I was so independant that I did not let anyone get close to me. I've been accused of this many times. It is most definitely a defense mechanism, a guard to not get hurt. But it also drove some amazing people away. A very simple example is that I would never, ever let a man pay my way. I was a strong independant woman. I was once told by a man that I liked very much that he couldn't see me anymore because I took away the pleasure he had of doing nice things for me. That really knocked me out and got me thinking long and hard about what was important to me. I think what you need is an exercise of self-reflection. Has your independance driven away people who you wished would have stayed? If your answer is no, that those who left just were too insecure to handle you, then fine, you're not too independant. But if your answer is yes, take a look to see where you might soften up the edges just a little. There is no reason that you might not, sometimes with someone you care and trust, let yourself be just a wee bit vulnerable :-) - LA While I agree with you on the problem with "too" I stil think that the view of "indepence" can make a difference. Is it because she (generic she) has a job, her own home and doesn't need someone to help her obtain the material things? Realistically, many men still have that "bread winner/provider" thing going on, and when she doesn't need him for that, he gets taken aback a bit (whether it makes sense doesn't matter, because that is how he feels). On the other hand is the independence refusing to allow someone else to do things because you can do them yourself. The simplest example is that I am completely capable of changing a tire or the oil in my car. Now if someone wants to do that for me, but I refuse wanting to do it for myself, what's the reasoning? Ok, that's probably not a great example, but the man is a mechanic and we go through this from time to time. In the beginning, I wouldn't want to let him do those things because I could and was used to doing them myself. But he WANTED to do them, so what purpose is my "independence" by refusing to let him? Like I said, bad example, but it was the simplest, most generic I could think of. Kind of like, none of us "need" another to bring us to orgasm, we all can (or at least should) do it perfectly fine on our own. But isn't it nice to have someone else get us there? I think the point that I'm making is that being "too independent" can, if you go about it the wrong way, become "control freak" and not in a dominating way. Like not wanting to allow others to help you in the kitchen because you can "do it yourself" even when you are having 10 people over for dinner and pressed for time. It's all in the definition the person ascribes to it. Kind of like it isn't being too independent, more a matter of insisting on being that way. Kind of like the example you gave LA of the man you liked who WANTED to do nice things for you, but you didn't let him. It was your insistence on being so independent that bothered him probably more than being so. Even though I know many women who take that position in the example for so many reasons, i.e. far too many men use that as an expectation for later, the women want to make sure the guy knows they don't "need" him to do those things but rather just want the woman's company (see how that can backfire). In the end, we all have to be comfortable and happy with ourselves because we can't break off that relationship we have with ourselves. Being able, as you did, to hear what the man had to say and look at how your "independence" might actually be holding you back rather than propelling you forward is the key. You could have just as easily (although in my opinion, stupidly) thought "what an ass, I can take care of myself and if he doesn't like that then fuck him."

LadyAngelika -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 8:00:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady I think the point that I'm making is that being "too independent" can, if you go about it the wrong way, become "control freak" and not in a dominating way... It's all in the definition the person ascribes to it. I agree. That's really the point I'm trying to make. One should look at their life and ask themselves that famous Dr Phil question "So how's that working for you?" ;-) - LA

littlewonder -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 8:18:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissAnimus I agree with this except instead of "needed" I use the word "wanted". It is clear to my partner that I can live independently but I don't want to. Revealing my desires makes me vulnerable without diminishing my ability to do things (everything) on my own. I expect the same thing from my partner. I don't want him to need me, I want him to want me. The problem with this is many men feel sorta lost if you don't need them. They're used to the whole breadwinner scenario where the man brought home the money, the man took care of the house, etc..and many men feel that if you don't need that then you don't need them. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that men feel a little intimidated if you don't need them. I know with the younger generation of men and women though that these views are changing radically. It's something I'm finding very difficult to grasp with my adult child and her generation of dating. But for those of us who are older there's still the traditional roles that men and women are still up against. So if you really find that being "too independent" is complicating your life, try looking at it from the other side and try to make him feel more comfortable..let him feel needed and let yourself be helped. There's nothing at all wrong with this imo.

sexyred1 -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 8:24:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissAnimus quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder The thing is..men like to feel needed. I think people in general like to feel needed. The men who are approaching you probably feel that because you can do everything on your own that you basically have no need or use for a man in your life. I've run across this numerous times. My solution? Make him feel needed. Let him do things for you occasionally, tell him how much he's needed and in what ways, show him just how much you desire him. There's nothing wrong with being vulnerable sometimes...even for a Domme. I agree with this except instead of "needed" I use the word "wanted". It is clear to my partner that I can live independently but I don't want to. Revealing my desires makes me vulnerable without diminishing my ability to do things (everything) on my own. I expect the same thing from my partner. I don't want him to need me, I want him to want me. I totally agree with this; it makes the most sense to me in the whole independent discussion. I find that men need to be wanted, not so much needed to take care of a woman. After all, men need to be taken care of at times as well.

MissAnimus -> RE: Too Independent? (1/14/2010 8:39:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder quote: ORIGINAL: MissAnimus I agree with this except instead of "needed" I use the word "wanted". It is clear to my partner that I can live independently but I don't want to. Revealing my desires makes me vulnerable without diminishing my ability to do things (everything) on my own. I expect the same thing from my partner. I don't want him to need me, I want him to want me. The problem with this is many men feel sorta lost if you don't need them. They're used to the whole breadwinner scenario where the man brought home the money, the man took care of the house, etc..and many men feel that if you don't need that then you don't need them. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that men feel a little intimidated if you don't need them. I know with the younger generation of men and women though that these views are changing radically. It's something I'm finding very difficult to grasp with my adult child and her generation of dating. But for those of us who are older there's still the traditional roles that men and women are still up against. So if you really find that being "too independent" is complicating your life, try looking at it from the other side and try to make him feel more comfortable..let him feel needed and let yourself be helped. There's nothing at all wrong with this imo. Oh but I want him to feel a little intimidated [;)]

undergroundsea -> RE: Too Independent? (1/15/2010 8:14:19 PM)
I consider independence to suggest that one can take care of self and achieve what one wants including fulfilling social needs. I find independence an attractive trait. Politesub and sunshinemiss raise good points about balancing the independence with not creating a social distance or barrier. From a D/s perspective, if someone is so independent that it makes them uncomfortable when another does something for them, it could have implications for compatibility. Such a person will likely be uncomfortable with a service submissive. Cheers, Sea

SlaveSubtoserve -> RE: Too Independent? (4/19/2010 3:34:38 PM)
...independent woman lover here.

MadameMarque -> RE: Too Independent? (4/20/2010 2:52:31 AM)
I've received feedback before, that I was too distant, and that I needed to let people know I need them, let them do something for me - that I seemed too self-sufficient, "too" much so meaning that it was preventing bonding and intimacy with others. I was really surprised, too, because from the inside, it doesn't feel that way at all. If you're getting this sort of feedback, weigh whether the sources are saying it to disempower you, or whether it is a message such as I'm describing, and that you may want to receive. I agree with Celeste DesFIP and others who are saying that the "too" in independent, is when it's actually an absence of openness to others, and a need to express in your behaviour that you need them, that their presence is so important to you that you have the vulnerability of love, desire for them, even a need for them. That you "depend" on them. quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I don't view that as a problem of being too independent but one of you being not open to emotional vulnerability. Through the death of one parent and the problems of another afterwards you learned that to be emotionally vulnerable meant you would be badly hurt. Thus you closed yourself off from being hurt by not getting emotionally involved. The problem here is that most people want and need their partners to be as emotionally vulnerable, as much in love, as they themselves are. Otherwise the risk is too great. What if I am riddled with the love of you, prey to it, a fool? How will I deny it? We cannot care about the cost.

leadership527 -> RE: Too Independent? (4/20/2010 6:26:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys It varies depending on the situations..I think it's possible for anyone to be too independent if it leads to emotional and physical elusiveness. Yup, this. In my mind, it all hinges on what the word "independent" means. One of the ways I think about relationships is like two planetary bodies orbiting each other. I've noticed that some people prefer a pretty loose orbit. Other people, myself among them, want a very tight orbit. So for me, I need a relationship where there is a huge amount of mutual inter-dependency. If your "independence" precludes that, then you wouldn't be suitable for me. If, on the other hand, you simply mean that you are competent, capable, intelligent, and able to make your own way through the world, carrying your own viewpoints, then I'd be fine with that. Sure, if we hooked up, it probably wouldn't result in a D/s relationship. But you'd be a suitable partner for an equal authority type marriage.

cloudboy -> RE: Too Independent? (4/20/2010 7:48:03 AM)
"Independent" is a bit of catch word to me. I'm not sure I understand "overly independent" either. As I get older, I do find it more trying not fitting the traditional molds of society -- from a job (self employed) and family (non traditional) POVs. Although often romanticized, its not easy to be different. Anyway, to answer your question, one of my favorite combinations in another person is "open and independent."

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Too Independent? (4/20/2010 7:58:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CarrieO ~For the men…Are you turned off by an overly independent woman? Why or why not? Oh no ... not at all. In fact ... only strong, independent, intelligent Women attract me. Why ... because, although You don't know me ... i am actually a very strong and independent man ... too. And i feel i need the company and companionship of a Woman i can relate to. Mentally and emotionally ... as well as physically. Yes, in regards to WIITWD ... i am submissive ... i guess it has a lot to do with my internal wiring and how i related to my mother years ago as a child. But, i do cater to a Woman i feel special about. Always have ... always will. At the same time, the stronger and more independent a Woman is ... the more She enchants me. That is my perspective. And actually, my experience ... too.

LaTigresse -> RE: Too Independent? (4/20/2010 12:08:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I think people saying you or anyone is too independent, is another way of saying they: a. cannot keep up with you b. are intimidated by you c. are insecure d. you have rejected them and they cannot figure out what to say other than "you are not very sub/Dom/real/etc. e. need to assuage their own ego by having you be more dependent on them There is nothing wrong with a woman being independent. She can still be dominant or submissive or a switch or any permutation thereof. Independence is the ability to think for oneself, take care of oneself and be responsible for oneself. It means you take ownership for yourself. You can still belong to someone else, have someone belong to you and share the joys and challenges of a relationship. Independence is not mutually exclusive with needing someone. This. And yes I have been told I am too independent. Too bad. I fought hard to get here, fuck em if they don't like it.

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