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Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/13/2010 7:24:33 PM   
sodsta


Posts: 246
Joined: 7/19/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline 		A new picture appeared on malesubmissionart.com the other day and it was accompanied by a really interested write-up. Now, the picture is not the main focus of the post for me, since all the fetish gear has clearly been photoshopped in, but the essay underneath the photo really got me thinking about male submission and how it's perceived by a lot of people vs. how it applies in life to different individuals.

The whole essay was very interesting to me, but I will take a few choice quotes from it:

quote:

From the markers of a collar and especially the single leather cuff around this man’s right wrist, it’s clear that he’s presenting as a submissive or a bottom. And yet everything about his body language speaks of an assertive, wilful presence. His pointed gaze is insistent, bordering on demanding, and his unabashedly open pose screams shamelessness.


quote:

but I see now that I’ve never fully embraced my submissive nature because I don’t especially like the archetype as it exists in our culture. In fact, there is no archetype. No role model. Nothing positive to look towards. Just layer after layer of stereotype and ridicule and cultural indifference.


quote:

Both dominance and submissiveness is entirely about satisfying one’s own sexual desires, just like any other sexual orientation or inclination. Submissive or not, we all deserve to have what we want.


The reason this essay resonated with me so strongly is mostly because I have, over time, come to question myself and my "submissiveness" based on a lot of the things I read on fetish sites and hear people talking about at fetish events. And I don't like that. I don't like that the common representation of what it is to be a sub (especially a sub male) is making me doubt myself, but I've not been able to really articulate why it was until I read Maymay's essay.

Here's the thing. I identify as a sub, but I've never felt I really fit the mould for what a male sub should be... at least based on what I've picked up from other people's opinions over time. I'm cheeky and assertive, I smirk at my domme challengingly sometimes, I'm occasionally a smart-mouth and I like to own my submission and wear it proudly... almost smugly sometimes. It's something that turns me on and makes me happy and gives me much enjoyment, and one of the main impressions I've come away from many a conversation with is that if a sub is enjoying themselves too much, they're doing it wrong.

I often see the term "do-me" sub bandied about, and while I agree that there are people out there to whom the label fits (people with no interest in the person they're playing with, only in the things being done to them), I have to admit to getting really angry when I see the label applied to any sub who expresses an interest in having their own needs met. I hate the idea that, as a submissive, I'm forced to put my desires to the back of the line. That's so completely not what I want. But... I don't want them at the front of the line, either. I want my desires and my partner's desires to be intertwined and over-lapping, so that we're both enjoying ourselves mutually as often as possible.

There have been times when I've been too nervous to speak up when I've seen discussions about this on certain forums, for fear of being branded a "do-me" sub. That is the sort of thing that has occasionally made me doubt myself or think I was doing things wrong. Reading Maymay's essay has made me feel a whole lot better about myself and more comfortable in my submission... and my kind of submission, and I'm essentially linking to it and making this post because I felt it was an interesting (and maybe important) point to make. I'm sure I'm not the only sub to have had doubts about himself based on common ideas or stereotypes of submission and maybe this post might prove helpful to other people, too.


-- Kye :)

< Message edited by sodsta -- 1/13/2010 8:07:25 PM >
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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/13/2010 7:48:28 PM   
CarrieO


Posts: 2432
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sodsta


I hate the idea that, as a submissive, I'm forced to put my desires to the back of the line. That's so completely not what I want. But... I don't want them at the front of the line, either. I want my desires and my partner's desires to be intertwined and over-lapping, so that we're both enjoy ourselves mutually as often as possible.



That's beautiful...thank you for sharing something that I, personally, would like to see more of here.  It gets old reading about how a man wants to be done.  You've given a great example of how a submissive man feels about his "do-me" side and why/how he wants to express it in a positive way. 

quote:


 but I see now that I’ve never fully embraced my submissive nature because I don’t especially like the archetype as it exists in our culture. In fact, there is no archetype. No role model. Nothing positive to look towards. Just layer after layer of stereotype and ridicule and cultural indifference.


Ironically, this plays into the thread that was about over-fetishizing dominant women http://www.collarchat.com/m_2976113/tm.htm

There are so many stereotypes to fall into...regardless of the label you identify with. 

Interesting link and great post...again thanks for sharing.  I'm looking forward to the responses.

_____________________________

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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/13/2010 9:36:36 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		When I say I require wilfull obedience from my boy, I mean intentional, deliberate obedience. But in the title of the thread, you're using the willful that means stubborn, headstrong and obstinate. I love a good double-entendre!  Thanks!


From Webster's:Main Entry: will·ful Variant(s): or wil·ful \ˈwil-fəl\Function: adjective Date: 13th century1 : obstinately and often perversely self-willed <a stubborn and willful child>2 : done deliberately : intentional <willful disobedience>
synonyms see unruly 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But then you cite this quote:

quote:

"Both dominance and submissiveness is entirely about satisfying one’s own sexual desires, just like any other sexual orientation or inclination."

That's just soooo wrong. It may be all about sex to you, and that's fine. But its about so much more, for My slaveboy and I. Its way more than just a sexual orientation, or preference. Its the way we are. Its the way we need to be with each other in and out of bed.

But I agree with you about the purpose: With my boy and I, the goal is mutual pleasure, fulfillment, and self-actualization, or self-realization. See Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:  http://hobbit.ict.griffith.edu.au/~davidt/maslows-hierarchy.jpg 

But don't miss the forest for the trees! When I was submissive, there were times when I derived a great deal of pleasure, paradoxically, from having my own individual needs and preferences fade mercifully into the background as my dom had his way with me. That's the paradox: that at times, the only way for an s-type to get pleasure and fulfillment is if their own needs and desires are denied for the pleasure of the dom. That the sub's own denial or suffering facilitates mutual pleasure.






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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/13/2010 9:59:14 PM   
Inglevine


Posts: 12
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Playing is all about give and take for me. I have no interest in a sub without a will of his own. I like the fight and the struggle, I love the cheek and spirit. If he's just going to limply do everything I tell him, what's the point of even tying him up?

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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/13/2010 10:17:08 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Inglevine

If he's just going to limply do everything I tell him, what's the point of even tying him up?


For me, the point is to help him hold still. If he has to concentrate too much on trying to hold still, he may miss out on the floaty, flying, sub-space kinds of feelings he craves. So if I don't want him fly, or if I just don't want to help him be still for me, I may not restrain him. Restraints are a help.

But that's just me. I like my boy to be still and quiet for me, while I use him. 


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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/13/2010 10:43:51 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		Totally agree with the concept of having pride in submission and wearing it like a badge of honor - and also frankly having fun, being flirty, or in my case being the peacock.  Why should the cheeky subbie chickies be the only ones to have all the fun?  

Certainly I am in this for mutual honor, love, and service - I dig power exchange!  But heck, if it cannot be fun, yes FUN for Her AND me...then why the hell would I be doing this? 

Listen, you try singing "Old McDonald" at the top of your lungs to animal choices like rabbits, zebras, and FISH, while tied up naked in front of the world and being smacked and NOT be having fun...that would just SUCK!  And you gotta have at least a bit of pride and cheek to stand up in front of people after that, eh?  "Yea that was me singing up there, fuck you, you want to make something of it?" 

Being submissive is fucking cool. 




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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/14/2010 8:52:23 AM   
onlyme32111


Posts: 25
Joined: 5/4/2008
Status: offline 		More and more women I know today are starting to re-define "submissive". They define it as a man who enjoys living under female authority. No one is saying he can't like strap play or floggings or other things but his first desire and main motive is to submit to female authority. Too many a men define "submissive" as the Professional Dominatrix - Client "submissive". Everyone knows the client isn't really submitting to anything outside of sexual kink. A woman will feel like a top servicer if the man 's priority is sexual kink submission only or if he's serving as a tit-for-tat means to an end.


I like to look at the strongest motive for submitting. Is it for sexual kink only or is it for a power exchange with sexual kink as icing on the cake? I invite the latter men into my life.

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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/14/2010 3:35:30 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		sodsta

First and foremost, great post. And while I'm at it, you have an adorable style :-)

I read through your post, and as CarrieO pointed out, it seems like the flip side to the thread I started about The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman, specifically when I saw you write:
quote:

sodsta:
The reason this essay resonated with me so strongly is mostly because I have, over time, come to question myself and my "submissiveness" based on a lot of the things I read on fetish sites and hear people talking about at fetish events. And I don't like that. I don't like that the common representation of what it is to be a sub (especially a sub male) is making me doubt myself, but I've not been able to really articulate why it was until I read Maymay's essay.

While I'm all for fetishes, D/s isn't a fetish, it's a power dynamic which can be expressed in harmony with fetishes.

quote:

sodsta:
Here's the thing. I identify as a sub, but I've never felt I really fit the mould for what a male sub should be... at least based on what I've picked up from other people's opinions over time. I'm cheeky and assertive, I smirk at my domme challengingly sometimes, I'm occasionally a smart-mouth and I like to own my submission and wear it proudly... almost smugly sometimes. It's something that turns me on and makes me happy and gives me much enjoyment, and one of the main impressions I've come away from many a conversation with is that if a sub is enjoying themselves too much, they're doing it wrong.

You sound like a delight! Ok, maybe I like my boys just a little less smug, but in general, I love when they have a rich and strong personality and are cheeky. That is part of the fun of it all! I want to be with someone who is happy, is having fun and can laugh.

It is my honest belief that "Dommes" that want to be with miserable men are miserable themselves.

quote:

sodsta:
I often see the term "do-me" sub bandied about, and while I agree that there are people out there to whom the label fits (people with no interest in the person they're playing with, only in the things being done to them), I have to admit to getting really angry when I see the label applied to any sub who expresses an interest in having their own needs met. I hate the idea that, as a submissive, I'm forced to put my desires to the back of the line. That's so completely not what I want. But... I don't want them at the front of the line, either. I want my desires and my partner's desires to be intertwined and over-lapping, so that we're both enjoying ourselves mutually as often as possible.


You know that saying about One bad apple... right? Well imagine a whole bushel of bad apples. Imagine that 9 out of 10 of the apples we sample are bad, not just that they aren't our kind of apple, but that they are sour, rotting or have a worm in them. We are very hesitant to bite into an apple. We expect the apple to be bad. Is this right? No. Should this change? I wish it would. But it isn't likely for the moment, because as long as Dommes are approached by this many bad apples, they will have their guard up.

So what does that mean for good apples? That means you have to shine and sparkle and look appealing. You have to scream bite me, without actually saying bite me ;-) Ha!!

I will tell you though, that 1 apple out of 10 is usually pretty sweet. There are good men out there and we know it. You just have to understand what we want, and what each of us want is different. See, for me, I would rather a man tell me who he is, what his passions are, what is important to him in life, etc. Then, when I ask him, and only when I ask him, that he tells me about his desires. Then I'm all ears. But before that, I feel like it is an assault. I'm not like all women, but I know a lot of good Dommes who agree with this.

quote:

sodsta:
There have been times when I've been too nervous to speak up when I've seen discussions about this on certain forums, for fear of being branded a "do-me" sub.

Don't :-) Just by looking at the way you expressed yourself in this thread, I have no doubt you will be able to articulate your thoughts in a clear manner. Those who want to label you a do-me sub will do so regardless of what you write. Nothing you can do about the ones who already have their minds made up!

quote:

sodsta:
I'm sure I'm not the only sub to have had doubts about himself based on common ideas or stereotypes of submission and maybe this post might prove helpful to other people, too.

I can guarantee you that you are not. Most of the submissive men I've dated have at one point or another. You are not alone and I'm sure those who are questioning themselves now are greatful for your post :-)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/14/2010 4:11:50 PM >

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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/14/2010 4:07:45 PM   
Domin8tingUrDrmz


Posts: 1269
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: Portland Metro, Oregon
Status: offline 		I like a submissive man who has personality, who has will, who can live by himself and be happy. Someone who has a good sense of self worth is more valuable to me than one who thinks himself a lowly worm. The types who "yes, Ma'am" every word out of My mouth without question, thought, or input annoy me.

However, I am just as annoyed by those who are cocky, arrogant, or too smug. A bit of that is okay, but too much and it just becomes one-sided in the submissives direction and that is sooooo not what I want.

Balance is key. I want a Female-led relationship. I am the final authority in decisions. That doesn't mean that his input isn't considered or valued, or that his desires are neglected. It does mean that his input and desires are given thought by me, and when/if I deem appropriate are implemented (perhaps with modification if I desire or see necessary).

So by all means, be cheeky, flirtatious, exuberant, and full of life...really, please do! Just remember not to step on my toes because I get pretty nasty if you do.

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RE: Wilful submission: Not always a bad thing. - 1/16/2010 7:42:50 PM   
AcademyForSlaves


Posts: 712
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline 		Hi.

All I can say at this moment is this is the reason why I like training subs.

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