RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2

RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (Full Version)

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OttersSwim -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 7:40:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Let's take a look at the abstract for a moment. Since part of the concept is about training as well, I'm going to suggest that the whole moderation business that has happened within the course of this thread, to go along with that same person's theories, now makes him more feminine by his own description. (This is not what I believe. I'm using the illustration to prove otherwise.) Parallel the desire to actively contribute to these boards with the desire to participate in a female led D/s relationship. In both cases, a standard of behavior was set. This standard for CM's rules, or protocols, if you will, is TOS. Just in the same way that the protocols, or rules for behavior by the submissive in the dynamic is set down by the Dominant. When willful disobedience to comply with these protocols was evidenced, a privilege was withdrawn, in addition to the communication provided as to why. Very much like those of us in authority would do with our submissive was willfully disobedient within a dynamic. I won't go as far as to say it is a punishment, but when we want to convey that a behavior isn't acceptable for our submissive, a good number of us communicate the desired behavior, and then alter a circumstance so that the behavior that we want is acheived. That could very well be said is what is happening here. In a sense, the poster on moderation has submitted to the protocols of the D/s dynamic which is participation on the CM forums, controlled by our wonderful 'Dominant' Alpha. Rather than the flaming, attacking posts that were not acceptable (watch the list above), he has submitted and changed his approach. He is now cooperative in holding the discussion at hand. He is now dependent on Alpha's approval of what he writes, if he would like it to be seen by the CM public. He is incapable of changing the situation until such authority removes the moderated status and will have to remain passive in his approach until his probationary period is up. Does this make the writer of those words more feminine? Of course it doesn't. It merely makes him a man who wants to continue his situation where someone, who happens to be female, has the authority. *Post of the Year Award*

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 8:06:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Let's take a look at the abstract for a moment. Since part of the concept is about training as well, I'm going to suggest that the whole moderation business that has happened within the course of this thread, to go along with that same person's theories, now makes him more feminine by his own description. (This is not what I believe. I'm using the illustration to prove otherwise.) Parallel the desire to actively contribute to these boards with the desire to participate in a female led D/s relationship. In both cases, a standard of behavior was set. This standard for CM's rules, or protocols, if you will, is TOS. Just in the same way that the protocols, or rules for behavior by the submissive in the dynamic is set down by the Dominant. When willful disobedience to comply with these protocols was evidenced, a privilege was withdrawn, in addition to the communication provided as to why. Very much like those of us in authority would do with our submissive was willfully disobedient within a dynamic. I won't go as far as to say it is a punishment, but when we want to convey that a behavior isn't acceptable for our submissive, a good number of us communicate the desired behavior, and then alter a circumstance so that the behavior that we want is acheived. That could very well be said is what is happening here. In a sense, the poster on moderation has submitted to the protocols of the D/s dynamic which is participation on the CM forums, controlled by our wonderful 'Dominant' Alpha. Rather than the flaming, attacking posts that were not acceptable (watch the list above), he has submitted and changed his approach. He is now cooperative in holding the discussion at hand. He is now dependent on Alpha's approval of what he writes, if he would like it to be seen by the CM public. He is incapable of changing the situation until such authority removes the moderated status and will have to remain passive in his approach until his probationary period is up. Does this make the writer of those words more feminine? Of course it doesn't. It merely makes him a man who wants to continue his situation where someone, who happens to be female, has the authority. *Post of the Year Award* In January, as well! :D

cloudboy -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 9:14:07 AM)
quote: And though many crossdressers will interpret this as a slight against them, what they fail to realise is that the sheer amount of "please Miss, do me like a girl" far outweighs the "I'd like to be a gentleman to server you" posts. I wrote in my OP: I call it "forced masculinity" to sort of counterbalance this incredibly huge demand for forced feminization. Funny, when I asked you why you had to create a polemic, you refused to answer, but at least now you are copping to being insulting. The real title of your thread should have read: Femdoms who hate cross dressing and female clothing on men. (A legitimate position, but why hide the true agenda?) As for your above comment: to sort of counterbalance this incredibly huge demand for forced feminization. You and I must not read the same board. All threads and topics recycle and 1-2 threads a month on forced fem do not constitute "an incredibly huge demand for forced feminization." My own Mistress has never been besieged by feminization requests, ever. Its a minority position here at best. If you don't like the threads or the kink, why read them? Why can't you let it be? Why did you have to start an oppositional thread? Why the need for the polemic? It doesn't surprise me that there's a war of words about masculinity and femininity, folks could argue opposing positions on these terms ad infinitum. One could also argue that "I'd like to be a gentleman to server you" is femininity incarnate and that all the attributes you categorize as "masculine" might according to prevailing social norms be classified as "feminine."

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 9:26:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Why did you have to start an oppositional thread? Why the need for the polemic? I wouldn't say this thread was oppositional or polemical-if you flick back there has been serious discussion about the kink and its implications. I think it's been valuable; I feel like I've gained a lot from it, and I have no negative feelings whatsoever about feminisation.

Lucienne -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 10:49:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I'm English, so I have never heard the catfood advert that goes 'meow meow meow...' But if you have I bet you're humming it right now. Lol. You wicked woman.

Lucienne -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:18:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 On the BEM Sex Role Inventory, I score 80% Masculine, 43% Feminine, and 51% androgynous, making me more Masculine than anything else, but still with strong feminine and androgynous traits. Test yourself, see where you come down. I tested myself. I clicked on the link, read the instructions and thought "I'm not wasting my time on this girly ass Cosmo shit." Pretty sure that makes me 100% masculine. :)

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:25:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I'm English, so I have never heard the catfood advert that goes 'meow meow meow...' But if you have I bet you're humming it right now. Lol. You wicked woman. Yeah... that was just down right mean! hehe But we are alike, because I did rub that song in and mentioned it in a couple threads that day. Of course I got threatened over it! hehe

RedMagic1 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:27:40 AM)
I have struck a blow for song-in-your-head equality! -- TestosteroneOozingDom

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:36:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 I have struck a blow for song-in-your-head equality! -- TestosteroneOozingDom Yeah, but I only watched the link you sent me once through, and if I'm honest I have forgotten how it goes already, whereas you guys have had a much higher exposure... :-P DW, I'll change the tag; I don't want to get cyber-lynched by a mob of angry Americans.

Lucienne -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:39:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack Evidence, please. The entire canon of western literature, starting with the story of Genesis and continuing up to Bridget Jones' Diary. I mean seriously man, you're asking for evidence for something that is a basic assumption in literary studies, in feminism, in sociology, etc. If you really need me to provide evidence for this then I would suggest you're simply not prepared to be involved in a serious discussion of this subject, and need to adopt a student mind rather than trying to argue from a position of gross ignorance. I don't mean that as an insult, it's just that you've essentially asked me to write a dissertation for you. And I'm not a professor. You want that kind of work from me, you'll have to pay for the privilege. ... The early Disney princesses, Snow White, Cinderella and especially Sleeping Beauty are all extremely feminine archetypes. Very feminine characters tend to be rare in fiction and literature, usually playing an exceedingly minor role -- the damsel in distress is the classic archtype, but true damsels in distress are rarely seen anymore, not since the advent of feminism. Someone more familiar with Victorian literature than I am could probably cite numerous examples. Jane Austen characters seem a good place to look. I've never read Emma or seen any of the adaptations, but I've seen Clueless (a modern take on Emma), and the Alicia Silverstone character is very feminine. Ok, I was going to leave this be. But I just... can't. How can you possibly feel justified making sweeping statements about the entire canon of western literature when your familiarity with Jane Austen is drawn from an Alicia Silverstone movie? When your off of the top of your head examples are Disney princesses? You unwittingly reached "but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night" status with your last two sentences. If you were capable of stepping back for a second and realizing just how absurd your statements are, you might be able to become half as intelligent as you think you already are. Should you be interested in familiarizing yourself with consideration of feminine archetypes in 19th century western literature, I suggest you start with Anna Karenina and the contrasting portrayals of Anna and Kitty.

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:42:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 I have struck a blow for song-in-your-head equality! -- TestosteroneOozingDom Yeah, but I only watched the link you sent me once through, and if I'm honest I have forgotten how it goes already, whereas you guys have had a much higher exposure... :-P DW, I'll change the tag; I don't want to get cyber-lynched by a mob of angry Americans. ROFL laughing at the signature line! OMG... keep it, at least for a lil while!

Politesub53 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:46:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 Now, of the two of them, Wilson is far more the gentleman. And this is not entirely surprising, as a gentleman is more feminine than a roughneck. Hence the gentle in the word. Gentleness being a feminine quality. Your opinion of your knowledge of English is, sadly, vastly over-rated. The word Gentleman has nothing to do with being gentle and everything to do with manners and class. A gentleman, in the true sense of the word, was someone who was chivalrous and cultered, yet held no true rank. IE not a nobleman. If you ever bother to read "Emma" by Jane Austen, the Gentleman in the story was one Mr Knightley, a name not just plucked out of the air, but insinuating the chivalric behaviour of both gentlemen and Knights of old. I am guessing you wouldnt think someone fighting in a suit of armour to be feminine. As a man ( see i said it ) who is submissive in his interactions with women of my choosing, I can assure you I am not submissive towards men in anyway. I am also not submissive towards just any woman that happens to come along. Here is a shock for you, a list of TRAITS, about any type of behaviour you care to name, wont apply to everyone. Some submissive men may have all of the traits mentioned yet others will have none. Your problem is you are stuck in the "me Tarzan you Jane mode". You really need to get your head out of your arse ( my apologies for being agressive ) and start observing real life, rather than your limited view of it.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:49:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 I have struck a blow for song-in-your-head equality! -- TestosteroneOozingDom Yeah, but I only watched the link you sent me once through, and if I'm honest I have forgotten how it goes already, whereas you guys have had a much higher exposure... :-P DW, I'll change the tag; I don't want to get cyber-lynched by a mob of angry Americans. ROFL laughing at the signature line! OMG... keep it, at least for a lil while! The old one, or the new one? Because personally, I like the new one better. But we're hijacking here, which is bad. :(

Politesub53 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:49:56 AM)
Blow me ( not literally but I`m open to offers Ladies ) I missed the link to Clueless and suggested you should read Emma, maybe you missed a bit or are just...clueless.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:51:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious The old one, or the new one? Because personally, I like the new one better. But we're hijacking here, which is bad. :( I love your new sig line. It cracked me up, and got me hot at the same time. Does that make me masculiner or femininer?

Lucienne -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:52:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious The old one, or the new one? Because personally, I like the new one better. But we're hijacking here, which is bad. :( The new one is even funnier than the old one.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:53:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious The old one, or the new one? Because personally, I like the new one better. But we're hijacking here, which is bad. :( I love your new sig line. It cracked me up, and got me hot at the same time. Does that make me masculiner or femininer? Thankyou :D Maybe Curiouser? Alice-in-Wonderland-style!

Lucienne -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 11:55:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Blow me ( not literally but I`m open to offers Ladies ) I missed the link to Clueless and suggested you should read Emma, maybe you missed a bit or are just...clueless. Or he could watch the Paltrow version. Take me away, Jeremy Northam!

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 12:11:26 PM)
I am not sure why we really need examples of what is feminine or musculin. Isn't some of this in the eyes of the beholder? To some, I may come across as a rough talking, foul mouthed woman... okay... I am... but still, men that have been with me have also found me cute, adorable, funny and feminine. Must I be feminine at all times to be feminine... is there a certain amount of time, energy or something else that makes me feminine or not? Believe me... when I am whispering in an ear... using my rabbit fur and moving around your body... you are not going to be thinking of my foul mouth or how I might swing a hammer! (And yes, I can swing a good hammer!) I had a boyfriend who was all man to me, but to someone else... and this actually was said... he looks and sounds gay! I didn't see him that way! He could pick me up and carry me to a wonderful candle lit bathroom with an amazing tub and he could protect me if need be... could answer anything survival and hunt and be all I would need of the world crashed. Fit as they come and yet gentle and artistic and most would think they could kick his ass... until he kicked their's. This is all a bit anal I think! lol

Wheldrake -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/20/2010 12:41:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 I prefer women who have a blend of feminine and masculine traits. I myself have a blend of feminine and masculine traits, just like most people. On the BEM Sex Role Inventory, I score 80% Masculine, 43% Feminine, and 51% androgynous, making me more Masculine than anything else, but still with strong feminine and androgynous traits. Test yourself, see where you come down. I didn't take the test, but I was curious enough to click the link. I couldn't help but notice what it said above the test questions, in plain English: "The Bem Sex Role Inventory was developed in 1971 by Dr. Sandra Lipsitz Bem. It characterizes your personality as masculine, feminine, androgynous, or undifferentiated. The BSRI is based on gender stereotypes, so what it's actually measuring is how well you fit into your traditional sex role. Thus, your score may say as much about how our cultural expectations have changed over the last 35 years as it does about your personality." Bolding mine, of course. In other words, even the "fellow" (as he describes himself at the bottom of the page) who is making the test available online acknowledges that it's measuring qualities that are stereotypically masculine or feminine. He's not pretending it comes from a valid, empirical description of what men and women are really like. Rigid lists of supposedly masculine and feminine traits, like the ones that appear on the test or the ones you've been putting forward in your posts, really just capture subjective expectations of how men and women are supposed to behave - I'm not sure I'd even say "traditional" expectations, given that they've varied so much throughout history and across different cultures. But in the real world, there are lots of ways to be a woman and lots of ways to be a man, and in most areas the two overlap more than you seem to want to believe.

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