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InvisibleBlack -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/22/2010 7:41:59 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
You're not asking me to question it though, you're asking me to prove something that can't be proven easily. To prove it I would have to tons of research and write treatise or dissertation. A novel.
Really, I was asking you to clarify your stance with some examples and then I was asking you to examine what leads you to feel that your sole viewpoint is the one single ubiquitous perception of masculine and feminine throughout all of history. The first could be handled with a few examples, which you did provide. The second, I would venture, cannot be proven but at this point I don't think it matters.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
Imagine if I had said "The amount of energy in the universe is equal to the square of the amount of matter in the universe (E=MC^2)." You respond with "Prove it." Now lets imagine that you don't know math or physics. At all. So to prove it to you, first I have to give you a serious education in physics and math. So that you can even begin to understand the proof.
Ummmm. That's not what E=mc^2 means. When Einstein published his paper in 1905 that introduced the concept it was titled "Does the inertia of a body depend upon its energy-content?" and the point (which was part of his general relativistic theories) was that the mass of a body is a measure of its energy content. E=mc^2 is the conversion factor between matter and energy, Einstein's claim is that an amazingly tiny amount of matter is equivalent to a tremendous amount of energy and the simple proof of this theory is the atomic bomb.
There. Hopefully I just managed to explain E=mc^2 in a small paragraph in a way that even someone without a great knowledge of math or physics could follow - including demonstrating the proof.
I don't really want to go into relativistic theory, however - if you really want the detail you can look up "mass-energy equivalence".
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
This tactic will never, ever lead me to questioning what I know, but it will make me seriously question whether or not you are being disingenuous and just fucking with me.
For what it's worth, questioning what you know is the only path to personal growth, but we'll just move on. I try not to be disingenuous and I rarely fuck with anyone in the "having you on" sense.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
And that's the reason I'm loathe to provide evidence. Because anything short of a dissertation will just be me cherry-picking examples, and you cherry-picking counter-examples, and us arguing over those examples. Which is mostly a waste of time.
Agreed.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
I wasn't being condescending.
That may be true, although I suspect otherwise - however, you certainly come across as condescending, not just in that paragraph to me but in many of your posts. Condescension (or perceived condescension) isn't a very persuasive or compelling style.If your goal is to communicate your points in a manner which will be received with acceptance and consideration by a general audience, you might want to consider adjusting your approach.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
They are polar opposites, and they are not aspects of the human condition. They are abstract concepts derived from observation and idealized.
You're kidding, right? They are absolutely aspects of the human condition. One doesn't apply the concepts of masculinity or femininity to non-human objects unless one is anthropomorphizing them. They're certainly not abstract concepts like "justice" - they're relevant only in how they pertain to people. While observation plays a part - I believe it's a very small part. Masculine and feminine roles and characters are learned or taught. One is enculturated with them. They're not derived in some abstract sense through scientific observation.
I would say however that I'm now realizing that you use the terms differently than everyone else here does - in which case this entire conversation serves no purpose.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
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Feminine: possessing the qualities and behaviors judged by a particular culture to be ideally associated with or especially appropriate to women and girls - i.e. gentility, charm, grace, poise, empathy, patience, kindness, affectionate, compassionate
Feminine traits: trust, cooperation, compassion, interpersonal communication and a nonthreatening demeanor
But...dude, what? Those examples you posted don't disagree with my view. They are evidence in support of my view!
Not at all. Your point was that feminine = weak. Neither list supports that view. In fact, one of them I gleaned from a list of traits possessed by successful female police officers in high-crime areas.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
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I'm rather curious - what's the date of publication of that sociology textbook?
2009.
A recent textbook claims that to be feminine is to be unintelligent and weak? Fascinating.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
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Whoa. Okay ... hang on a sec. Your highest example of femininity is the Princess Aurora in Sleeping Beauty? The woman who spends the better part of the plot unconscious? I agree with you that the "damsel in distress" is as valid a feminine archetype as the "femme fatale" ... but to hold up an unconscious victim as the perfect example of being feminine - I think even the Victorians wouldn't go that far. I'm pretty sure the Victorian man wanted his woman awake and aware. You don't see that the point you're putting forward is extreme?
If you asked me to cite an example of the perfectly masculine character, I'd cite the Terminator from the first Terminator movie (but not the later ones). So yes, I am aware that the example is extreme. That was the point.
So a pre-programmed death machine is the ultimate idealized man and an unconscious victim is the ultimate idealized woman? Dude, I think you need help.
I don't think any culture or any society has subscribed to your proposed ideals - certainly not in the realm of Western literature or history. You're out there in your own personal uni-culture.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
I never said that I found feminine women rare, I said I found very feminine women...
I think you're splitting hairs here.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
...as in women characters who exemplify ONLY feminine traits, very rare. Almost all female characters that are remotely memorable have some masculine qualities.
Being human, no one is going to be pure in that sense and be 100% masculine or 100% feminine. Any realistic work would have to portray its characters as both flawed and with distinct personality traits. To claim only a woman who exhibited 100% feminine traits is required for a feminine character is specious.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
It's okay. I lose most people there. Most people think fascism = killing Jews.
Actually I don't think that, but I certainly don't want to get into an involved discussion on the nature or aspects of fascism. Nor do I want to completely go off the rails on Lady A's thread and start a discussion of it. Talking about fascism rarely results in rational enlightening conversation.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
Here's a great quote from Mussolini...
Seriously. I'm not going into fascism here. It's not germane and it's one of those topics that always devolves down into an ugly flamewar.
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ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
But what do you mean when you say these men are masculine? Is it solely a matter of superficial attributes, like physical size, squareness of jaw? I can't backwards engineer a definition of masculinity from your statements. You've written all of this, but I still have no idea what the word masculine means to you.
My definition of masculine wouldn't be my definition of what I believe society perceives masculinity to be, but if I had to boil my definition down to a set of traits:
Courage (or valor in the medieval sense), honor, integrity, daring, stoic endurance, direction, along with a sense of "stewardship" or "responsibility" that I can't find a good cognate for at the moment - the drive that impels The Man With No Name to get involved, or the Hemmingway hero to make the sacrifice after spending three-quarters of the novel claiming he doesn't care. In time it'll come to me.
None of that requires dominance or submission. The samurai who kills himself after avenging the death of his master is as masculine an archetype as the lone western gunslinger who saves the town from the gang of ruffians.
The Terminator does not have these traits. His actions have the appearance of some of these traits but the Terminator is a soulless machine and so is incapable of courage or integrity or even stoic endurance. Cutting out his own eye to continue functioning properly and achieve the objective isn't an act of manliness - he doesn't feel pain - it's the coldly logical decision of a computer.
[Edited: No typos this time, I left out whole words. It's been a long day.]
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