RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2

RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 11:23:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne FR I enjoyed the intended humor of the title of this thread. But it also takes me in the humorous direction of imagining forcing a man to fart in bed, leave the toilet seat up and refuse to read the directions. Presumably, by 'directions', you're not talking about the map-reading kind, Lucienne, hmmm? [;)] Bit of a peculiar thread, for me. I can't be forced to be masculine because I already am masculine. I'm a male, therefore whatever I do is masculine, by definition. So, anyone who doesn't consider me masculine is working on the basis of a definition that is, ipso facto, wrong. Besides, as far as I'm concerned, only a lily-livered mental milksop would allow himself (and his masculinity in particular) to be defined by others - other men, women, even femdoms. As far as I can make out, being a lily-livered mental milksop doesn't conform even to the bog-standard definition of 'masculine'.

puppy4adoption -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 11:45:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rockspider LOL. I think she is going to look for a looooong time. Of course i could put up a list for my self for a sub, but if she really did exist I would think that she would be looking for Branson (Virgin Airwyas) in stead of a midle aged tradesman with a few pounds extra and a thinning top. [:D] Well we can all dream. Which way did Elizabeth Hurley go?[8D] What i do find absolute amusing is that her profile states only what she wants. Not a single word of what she is offering in return, not even a glimpse of what she might look like. I'm a man that isn't in to forced feminization or sissification. In fact, a domme at one point order me to act like a sissy male. I didn't know what to do. She tried to explain it to me; I wasn't able to comprehend it. Perhaps, it's because it's something that doesn't float my boat or because I'm not mentally wired to act in that fashion. But none the less, there are submissive males out there that are masculine and dam proud of it.

Missokyst -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:05:08 PM)
Well I'll be darned. I am independent, self reliant, I run groups, have owned businesses, and have often found myself in charge. I guess I will have to confess my sins of non-inadequacy to my former dominants who were obviously fooled by my submission to them. I didn't realise we were supposed to be deficient. quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 If I were to write a list of masculine traits, submissiveness wouldn't appear on it at all, and a lot of things that are pretty directly contradictory to submission -- like independence, self-reliance, leadership, etc. -- would. I mean...can anyone even name a single masculine archetype that's submissive? I can't, and I'm pretty well-versed in archetypes. Submission is like...the least masculine thing that ever was.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:22:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 I can't even begin to imagine how forced masculinity would work. And if it did work...wouldn't the subject no longer be a submissive? I just can't reconcile the idea of masculinity with male submission. And I kind of want to ask Lady Angelika why she doesn't just date non-submissive men. Or Doms. Since that seems to be what you're trying to turn these male subs into. i find it interesting that you believe that masculinity and male submission are mutually exclusive. i think that you are mistaken. i am a male submissive, but there is nothing feminine about me. i lettered in 4 sports in high school. i played college basketball. i was a VERY successful corporate executive. i now own multiple companies. And i can kick most men's arses. i am an alpha male in the truest sense of the word, yet i self-identify as a submissive male. To me, the "submission" is about power exchange, NOT about femininity. But you are not alone in your perspective. i am often reluctant to identify myself publicly as a submissive male because so many have the same perception that you do. So many of the submissive males out there are wimpy, panty-wearing, guys who whine incessantly for their Mistress to cuckold them and do them with her strap-on, that they make it tough for masculine subs like me who don't really relate to that type of behavior. But trust me, just because Lady Angelika prefers her men to be masculine, she is NOT turning them into Doms. "Submissive" is not equivalent to "feminine", and "masculine" is not equivalent to "dominant".

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:29:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious He was a six-foot-something-ridiculous rugby player who didn't walk through a door before me for the whole time I knew him. He may not have been a perfect gentleman (sometimes he would have trouble backing down from fights with other blokes) but you couldn't accuse him of not being masculine. That's not what we're talking about though. Look, I get that very masculine men can have a submissive side that needs to come out or something, and I'm not saying that a submissive man can't be masculine. I'm just saying I don't think you can make a man who isn't already masculine become so through submission. That's very counter-intuitive. That isn't what you said. What you said was: quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 Submission is like...the least masculine thing that ever was. I was giving a counter-example. That guy's submission was extremely masculine. quote: Dommes are definitely not very feminine. Being a Domme is a very masculine way of expressing one's self I'm not entirely sure what sort of Dommes you've been hanging around with, but I would say I use my feminity to enforce my dominance-people obey me because I am a very sexy and feminine lady, not because I get all masculine and start shouting or looming over people.... I also feel like we're wilfully misunderstanding the OP here-I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that she was talking about a specific type of protocol and behaviour that she likes to instil in her subs, which has to do with being gentlemanly; she isn't taking 'feminine' men (whatever you want to call them) and making them something they aren't-she's polishing diamonds. [:)]

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:29:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn In other areas, I've often found dominants who want to feminize me, but it's not my thing, so they then question my submissive nature. So again, it comes back to a whole point of reinforcement that I don't think women realize they're actually producing. I've been dumped by women who were convinced a submissive male has to undergo feminization as some kind of submissive responsibility. Yup, i've been down that road many times. Forced feminization isn't my thing either, but there are many Dommes who believe that feminization is like circumcision; it's something that should be done early in the life of a male sub. Go figure.

DommeMae -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:39:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 I mean...can anyone even name a single masculine archetype that's submissive? I can't, and I'm pretty well-versed in archetypes. Submission is like...the least masculine thing that ever was. Strong, powerful, fierce warrior Julius Caesar was beguiled by and weak for the charms of Cleopatra. The power of the pussy crushed another dominant male. Oh poor mighty Caesar - you were so doomed! [;)] LadyAngelika: It's a stereotype that submissive men aren't masculine. Submissive men are confident, intelligent, dominant men with a desire for feminine charm and a need female leadership and authority. I can't speak for all women but the submissive men I let into my life weren't weak, whinny doormats who wanted to be feminized into girly girls. Oh no!!! They see the WOMAN as the one to be pampered and adored. [sm=preen.gif]

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:41:15 PM)
Boy the intentional misconceptions are rampant today. Go figure... an unmanned keyboard is trying to wreak havic. Ignore it... it might go away. Dominance isn't something that is worked out in a physical sense, but a mental and emotional sense. If someone needs the physical to be dominant, I would suggest there is a problem. Just the same as in submission it isn't a physical sense, but emotional and mental. Physical things can be a part of it all thankfully... but the physical has little to do with one's submission or dominance and we all, either side of the slash, come in all shapes and sizes. Just the same... bdsm... d/s... sex... and self projection doesn't have to come from someone sane... but it works better that way. Being a gentleman... has far more to do with presentations and intentions.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:44:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 I don't know any Dommes in real life. Just on the internet. Like mostly here. We already know this. It is clear from your positions in this thread alone. If you would like to learn something about real life BDSM, I encourage you to read with an open mind, and leave the wolverines at home.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:49:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I would say I use my feminity to enforce my dominance-people obey me because I am a very sexy and feminine lady, not because I get all masculine and start shouting or looming over people.... Bingo!!!!! Thank you for stating that so clearly. i don't submit to a woman's physical strength or loud voice. It is her femininity that i submit to.

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 12:56:10 PM)
I went to school with a young lady who was actually smaller than I was and that was damn small. She was all fem... so pretty and sweet.. until she went to kick your ass. That black belt sure came in handy. To look at her, you never would have known it. I had opportunity... not that I asked for it... to kick some tail end and mostly males and multiples, in my many different dresses. Did that say anything but that I could protect myself and I had pretty underware? My dominance and feminine presentation and her submissive and feminine presentation meant nothing in the physical... it was what was in our minds and attitudes. We both kicked ass... yet were very different personalities.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:07:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo The hypothesis: Men who are in successful, long term relationships of the vanilla variety … tend to become domesticated … to the disposition of the Lady to whom they are married (involved with …etc). They tend to behave, according to the standards imposed by the Lady they spend their lives with. And while the standards defining the word gentleman … tend to vary from person to person … what is a very common is that the man adapts to the wishes of the Lady. I am thinking the definition of this phenomena is love … and when it is discovered, admitted and accepted by the male … he instinctively begins to adapt to the standards set by the Lady. Wow! i cannot applaud loudly enough for this post. It's definitely one of the best things that i've read on CM in a long time. i agree with every word of it. Kudos. Your post captures why i don't really consider myself to be particularly kinky. IMO, what i do is just natural. When i love a woman, i cater to Her desires. Nothing pleases me more than pleasing Her. My happiness is derived from Her happiness. Thus, my submission is in some ways a selfish act. To LadyAngelika's original point, i love holding doors open for my woman. i love being chivalrous. i love protecting Her. i love serving Her. i love pleasing Her. It is just sad that we live in a time where LA and other women feel that chivalry has to be forced. It's a sad commentary about our society.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:11:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I was giving a counter-example. That guy's submission was extremely masculine. I think your counter-example was actually of a very masculine guy who submits, but his submission itself is not masculine. None of his rugby buddies who saw him engaged in acts of submission would see those acts as reinforcing his masculinity. Quite the opposite, they would throw his masculinity into question. What?! Having wild kinky not-quite-sex with an attractive girl would throw his masculinity into question?!? He said there was some locker-room teasing about scratch-marks on his back a few times, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't negative. [:D] I just can't relate to your insistence that his submission isn't masculine. Part of me wishes I could show you a photo of him straining to keep still in a stress position or something-he takes great pride in showing off his muscular strength for me during play, which is something I would definitely consider masculine. quote: quote: I'm not entirely sure what sort of Dommes you've been hanging around with, but I would say I use my feminity to enforce my dominance-people obey me because I am a very sexy and feminine lady, not because I get all masculine and start shouting or looming over people.... I don't know any Dommes in real life. Just on the internet. Like mostly here. So let's be clear: you are casting aspersions on the femininity of a dynamic you've never seen in person. While we're on the subject, have you ever taken/been a male sub or seen a male sub submit in person? Because as far as I can tell most people talking on this thread have personal experience of the subject, and they all seem to be disagreeing with you... quote: quote: I also feel like we're wilfully misunderstanding the OP here-I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that she was talking about a specific type of protocol and behaviour that she likes to instil in her subs, which has to do with being gentlemanly; she isn't taking 'feminine' men (whatever you want to call them) and making them something they aren't-she's polishing diamonds. That's kind of what I was getting at with my Ken-doll quip. I can see training a man to act like a gentleman, but being a gentleman doesn't really have anything to do with being masculine. That kind of training won't make a man more masculine, it's just...you know, monkey suit training. It's implied in the original post that she is calling her kink 'forced masculinity' to contrast it with 'forced feminisation'; it's a play on words. No monkey suits here...

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:31:30 PM)
This thread just made me think back upon my life and the men I had in it. I went back to the days of hot California sun and all the drugs, the guys being tough and the social enviornment where we lived. You had to be tough to survive. As the new kid... 36 new schools of transistion and fighting my way in... I learned to pick the toughest guy in the group. The leader of the pack so to speak. It was him that I took notice of... because I liked them strong physically and mentally and if he was the leader of the pack... he had something. Soon that leader of the pack would be mine. Soon he followed my lead while he led the others. I still like the leader of the pack and throughout my life... I have been the leader of the leader of the pack.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:44:21 PM)
quote: Soon that leader of the pack would be mine. Soon he followed my lead while he led the others. I still like the leader of the pack and throughout my life... I have been the leader of the leader of the pack. Lockit, Will you marry me? [:D]

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:47:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit I still like the leader of the pack and throughout my life... I have been the leader of the leader of the pack. I love the phrasing of that. I moved from a not-too-rough school (soft drugs and the odd pregnancy or four but no dealing or knives on site) to an achingly posh one (where it was standard procedure for the boys to open doors for you and make you walk through first no matter how much stuff they were carrying/how far down the corridor you were/whether or not they were on crutches...) for the last two years of school. That experience, combined with the fact that I now live with a bunch of mind-bendingly upper class ex-mini-Royal-Air-Force-cadets has left me with a bit of an aversion to 'gentlemanly' behaviour, if I'm brutally honest-there is a respect in including you (as a woman) in the cursing and crude jokes that I would take over table manners and politeness any day. I can see where Lady Angelika is coming from, though-teaching someone gentlemanly ways of behaving is going to give their confidence a massive boost, for one thing, and that is never going to stop being sexy...

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:48:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 quote: Soon that leader of the pack would be mine. Soon he followed my lead while he led the others. I still like the leader of the pack and throughout my life... I have been the leader of the leader of the pack. Lockit, Will you marry me? [:D] ROFLMAO! Oh... that was sweet! Domme heart melt and the funny bone too!

OttersSwim -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:52:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 ...psychonaut23's blatant slam against veterans that I am not going to repost here... I have reported this portion of your post. As you sit there behind your keyboard with the -freedom- to type whatever stupid shit you want in safety and security, be sure to thank a Veteran. You should try that line in a public place where you are face to face with real people...you'd be the belle of the ball I assure you. Be sure to call an ambulance to the scene before you express your vaunted opinion...ya'know, on second thought, don't bother wasting their time.

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:53:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit I still like the leader of the pack and throughout my life... I have been the leader of the leader of the pack. I love the phrasing of that. I moved from a not-too-rough school (soft drugs and the odd pregnancy or four but no dealing or knives on site) to an achingly posh one (where it was standard procedure for the boys to open doors for you and make you walk through first no matter how much stuff they were carrying/how far down the corridor you were/whether or not they were on crutches...) for the last two years of school. That experience, combined with the fact that I now live with a bunch of mind-bendingly upper class ex-mini-Royal-Air-Force-cadets has left me with a bit of an aversion to 'gentlemanly' behaviour, if I'm brutally honest-there is a respect in including you (as a woman) in the cursing and crude jokes that I would take over table manners and politeness any day. I can see where Lady Angelika is coming from, though-teaching someone gentlemanly ways of behaving is going to give their confidence a massive boost, for one thing, and that is never going to stop being sexy... You know... I can relate to that! What is so wonderful about being dominant is that we can have it any way we want it! [;)] Me... I can't make up my mind... so I think I will take two! hehe

onlyme32111 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/16/2010 1:59:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DommeMae quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 I mean...can anyone even name a single masculine archetype that's submissive? I can't, and I'm pretty well-versed in archetypes. Submission is like...the least masculine thing that ever was. Strong, powerful, fierce warrior Julius Caesar was beguiled by and weak for the charms of Cleopatra. The power of the pussy crushed another dominant male. Oh poor mighty Caesar - you were so doomed! [;)] LadyAngelika: It's a stereotype that submissive men aren't masculine. Submissive men are confident, intelligent, dominant men with a desire for feminine charm and a need female leadership and authority. I can't speak for all women but the submissive men I let into my life weren't weak, whinny doormats who wanted to be feminized into girly girls. Oh no!!! They see the WOMAN as the one to be pampered and adored. [sm=preen.gif] Julius Caesar is one of many!

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