How Public Servants Became our Masters

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TheHeretic -> How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 10:39:13 AM)
Here's an interesting article, looking at one of the time bombs ticking away on our economy, and the ability of government to do what they are supposed to do. The average federal salary (including benefits) is set to grow from $72,800 in 2008 to $75,419 in 2010, CBS reported. But the real action isn’t in what government employees are being paid today; it’s in what they’re being promised for tomorrow. Public pensions have swollen to unrecognizable proportions during the last decade. In June 2005, BusinessWeek reported that “more than 14 million public servants and 6 million retirees are owed $2.37 trillion by more than 2,000 different states, cities and agencies,” numbers that have risen since then. State and local pension payouts, the magazine found, had increased 50 percent in just five years. These huge pension increases have eaten away at public finances, most spectacularly in California, where a bipartisan bill that passed virtually without debate unleashed the odious “3 percent at 50” retirement plan in 1999. Under this plan, at age 50 many categories of public employees are eligible for 3 percent of their final year’s pay multiplied by the number of years they’ve worked. So if a police officer starts working at age 20, he can retire at 50 with 90 percent of his final salary until he dies, and then his spouse receives that money for the rest of her life. It is a three page article, but I did manage to find the 'single page' button for the link. I have two suggestions for getting this problem under control. The first ain't likely, the second is pretty radical change at a fundamental level. To start with, we need to ban public employee unions. The conditions of employment that the government applies to private employers should damn well be good enough for those who live off their sweat. We can certainly tinker around with advisory commissions, and boards of review, and all manner of ways to address grievances, but the union is GONE. If we really want to cure the disease, instead of just treating the worst of the symptoms, I think we need to fundamentally alter where our public servants come from. Mandatory national service. We replace the spoiled and bloated employment rolls with draftees, from the federal level, all the way down to a community services district. Patching potholes, administering the DMV eye test, writing parking tickets, guarding prison inmates... These aren't high skill jobs. It won't cover every job we need covered, but a barracks full of young people performing their national service is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than what we are doing.

Musicmystery -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 10:45:13 AM)
quote: To start with, we need to ban public employee unions. The conditions of employment that the government applies to private employers should damn well be good enough for those who live off their sweat. We can certainly tinker around with advisory commissions, and boards of review, and all manner of ways to address grievances, but the union is GONE. I am surprised to see you advocating "Just trust the government to take care of you." Certainly, a number of arguments could fairly run counter, beginning with the potential politicization of the work place. The wake of the politicization of the legal profession in the last administration comes to mind, as well as unintended effects like Reagan dismissing all the air traffic controllers--now meaning they are all retiring at all the same time.

TheHeretic -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 10:59:19 AM)
Miss the last paragraph, Tim? I addressed your concerns I think. And don't you think the regulations the gov't passes for everybody else should be good enough for the gov't workers themselves?

Musicmystery -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:04:19 AM)
I didn't miss it; it's irrelevant to the point. I do think that public workers deserve comparable rights to those in private industries. That's very different than your last rhetorical question, which again slides around the point. We simply disagree. Not surprising on this point, but your rationale conflicts with views you normally hold.

TheHeretic -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:24:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery your rationale conflicts with views you normally hold. I'm not sure where you are seeing the conflict. I'm not an anarchist. Is my solution too based in realism and not idealistic enough? (The first. My other suggested solution should be idealistic enough for anybody).

Musicmystery -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:26:55 AM)
I've no problem with your national service initiative. It's a jump from there to banning public employee unions, however.

juliaoceania -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:32:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I didn't miss it; it's irrelevant to the point. I do think that public workers deserve comparable rights to those in private industries. That's very different than your last rhetorical question, which again slides around the point. We simply disagree. Not surprising on this point, but your rationale conflicts with views you normally hold. I am sure he wants all unions banned, so he wants all employees to have the same protection... which would be none

TheHeretic -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:38:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am sure he wants all unions banned, so he wants all employees to have the same protection... which would be none Perhaps this sort of baseless strawman attack is what has you thinking there is a conflict, Muse? Ahhh, Julia. Same shit, different decade.

juliaoceania -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:41:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am sure he wants all unions banned, so he wants all employees to have the same protection... which would be none Perhaps this sort of baseless strawman attack is what has you thinking there is a conflict, Muse? Ahhh, Julia. Same shit, different decade. So how do you feel about labor unions, Rich?

TheHeretic -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:52:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So how do you feel about labor unions? The same way I felt about them the last time you asked. They have accomplished good things but are as subject to corruption and greed as any other powerful organization. I would not suggest they be banished, and your assertion was nothing but a nasty mischaracterization (as I said, same old Julia shit). Unions which place the interests of public employees above the interests of the public they serve, as illustrated in the linked article, need to go.

juliaoceania -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:55:32 AM)
quote: Unions which place the interests of public employees above the interests of the public they serve, as illustrated in the linked article, need to go. Seriously, I was under the impression that you were not very fond of unions in general. As for the article, those people who work for the government are also part of the public they serve.. I have a brother in law that is a correctional officer... probably a union that would fall in the category you state, but in reality his union is protecting californians from privatized prisons which are insecure and not a damn dime less expensive.. two sides to a story...

LafayetteLady -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:58:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Patching potholes, administering the DMV eye test, writing parking tickets, guarding prison inmates... These aren't high skill jobs. That one there in bold is a bit more "high skilled" than you seem to realize. There is a great deal of training involved. I do agree that the benefits afforded to government employees far outreach anything one would receive in the private sector. The argument has always been that, especially in the case of police and fire personnel, they have put their life on the line and should be rewarded for their years of service. Considering the number of policemen that are able to retirement and live off their pensions well before even 50, they are obviously getting quite a great deal. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am sure he wants all unions banned, so he wants all employees to have the same protection... which would be none Most unions have outlived their purpose. Yet there are still positions that would benefit from unionization, but those unions don't exist. The Teamsters, the Teacher's Union, these two "biggies" really don't serve a purpose anymore. I know many people think that teachers are grossly underpaid, but if you look at the majority of statistics, it is one of the few jobs that offers a halfway decent starting salary with little experience. Teachers only work approximately 190 days a year. They still have sick days, they don't work 8 hours a day. Even when they are started at 30K a year, because of the schedule, they are making about $22 bucks an hour. Not bad for someone fresh out of college. Their union contract grants them the right to leave the school at the final bell, and you will often see some teachers going to their car before all the kids are even on the bus. Most would not even bother to stay to help students in need of extra help. The idea that they have "so much" work to do outside of the classroom is a bit of a crock. Every teacher gets a free period and if you honestly believe that they are spending an hour or two every single night after school is out, you're dreaming. They are only working a 6 hour day, maybe 190 days a year to begin with, so who should feel sorry for them putting in some "at home" hours? Especially when a large portion of corporate American already does just that. Then they want 100% paid benefits? How many people in private corporations are still getting that? Meanwhile, industries where unions could be of help, it won't happen. Food service industries and retail are grossly underpaid. The "minimum wage" for a food service has not increased in about 20 years. They make $2.13 an hour most places. Even though every article you read says you should tip about 18-20% STANDARD now, there are still a huge number that think 10-15% is being generous. There are no paid sick days, no paid vacation and very few offer health benefits. Same thing with retail. Minimum wage, crazy hours that get increased and decreased by season and unless you are in one of the "anchor stores" in a mall, vacation and sick time might or might not exist. There IS protection for employees juliaoceania. They are the laws under the Department of Labor. If unions are banned, and some of the DOL laws are beefed up to include the issues the unions allegedly protect its members with, the unions are no longer necessary. If fact the industries where unions don't exist would benefit as well, which they don't now. Honestly, the majority of union time nowadays is spent lobbying in Washington, not spent looking out for the "little guy" which is why unions began in the first place.

Musicmystery -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 11:59:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am sure he wants all unions banned, so he wants all employees to have the same protection... which would be none Perhaps this sort of baseless strawman attack is what has you thinking there is a conflict, Muse? Ahhh, Julia. Same shit, different decade. Rich, Discussions here always end up going in multiple directions on often entirely unrelated--or at best, loosely related--topics as if pertinent to the original argument. Red herrings and straw man indeed. I've neither time nor interest in keeping up with such swamps, with rare exception. If you've something to say about my position, fine. If you've something to say to julia, say it to her. [I see that's now already in progress.] Don't mix them together and expect me to defend it. I'd appreciate that. Thank you.

juliaoceania -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 12:06:22 PM)
quote: That one there in bold is a bit more "high skilled" than you seem to realize. There is a great deal of training involved. My brother in law had to attend an academy. He is considered a peace officer in this state. He must have a service weapon which he must show proficiency with using annually. He is under a lot of pressure to not only maintain the safety of those he guard, but his life as well. If that job paid less and had less benefits we would have less qualified people doing it. As it is one must be screened in order to do that job both criminally and personally... a security clearance. I hardly think we want those who we task with guarding the worst of the worst to be unprepared and to put all of us at risk.

TheHeretic -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 12:11:12 PM)
Prison guards are right at the top of my list, Lafay. Of course we are going to need some high skill positions inside the prisons, but the majority of the grunt work could be done by any old graduate of the high school football/wrestling team who has been run through a 12-week course specialized course and is subject to military discipline and good leadership. Shit, we had a guy at our local state facility earn over $200,000 in 2008 (I'll look for the article, but I'm not sure if any of the papers with online archives picked it up). add: I couldn't find anything quickly on the guy who topped $200,000, but here is the guy who made $187,000 for 2005; http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060228/news_1n28guards.html

juliaoceania -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 12:18:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Prison guards are right at the top of my list, Lafay. Of course we are going to need some high skill positions inside the prisons, but the majority of the grunt work could be done by any old graduate of the high school football/wrestling team who has been run through a 12-week course specialized course and is subject to military discipline and good leadership. Shit, we had a guy at our local state facility earn over $200,000 in 2008 (I'll look for the article, but I'm not sure if any of the papers with online archives picked it up). I wouldn't do that job for what they pay now, much less if they paid less... you have no idea how dehumanizing it is to be a prison guard... it ranks on the top of the list as one of the most depressing places to be. So you expect people to do that work for little compensation... What they have found is that there is a direct link between pay and level of professionalism amongst guards. In this state I do not want unprofessional guards seeking to compensate for their low wages selling contraband to inmates, etc. Not to mention the safety to the public, which thus far you have not even attempted to address.. Prison riots are extremely common in privatized prisons.. and then who gets called? Our riot police, which costs much more to life, limb and tax dollars than doing it correctly in the first place Edited to add, an experienced guard that works extra shifts on occasion makes about 70k a year. Of course the higher up in prison management you are the better your wage, but that 200k salary is something I just do not believe... my brother in law worked doubles often to clear that 70k, and that was before furlows

TheHeretic -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 12:34:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I wouldn't do that job for what they pay now, much less if they paid less... you have no idea how dehumanizing it is to be a prison guard... it ranks on the top of the list as one of the most depressing places to be. So you expect people to do that work for little compensation... All the more reason for this not to be a lifetime career. Mind you, I also favor changing our drug laws in such a way as to chop way back on the number of inmates we need to be guarding.

vincentML -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 12:36:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Most would not even bother to stay to help students in need of extra help. The idea that they have "so much" work to do outside of the classroom is a bit of a crock. Every teacher gets a free period and if you honestly believe that they are spending an hour or two every single night after school is out, you're dreaming. They are only working a 6 hour day, maybe 190 days a year to begin with, so who should feel sorry for them putting in some "at home" hours? Especially when a large portion of corporate American already does just that. Then they want 100% paid benefits? How many people in private corporations are still getting that? This is just so much generalized garbage you are spouting. I can tell you from experience of teaching for 30 years and having responsibility for planning curriculum, implementing it by gathering all the materials for laboratory activity, evaluating student progress for more than 150 students, dealing with parental concerns and being overwhelmed by cya Adminstrative trivia, I spent plenty of long hours at home evenings and weekends hard at work. Additionally, we never asked for 100% paid benefits. All benefits were calculated as part of our salary package. You leave the impression they were some extra gravey when in fact the total dollar amount of the package depended on money made available by the State. quote: Meanwhile, industries where unions could be of help, it won't happen. Food service industries and retail are grossly underpaid. The "minimum wage" for a food service has not increased in about 20 years. They make $2.13 an hour most places. Even though every article you read says you should tip about 18-20% STANDARD now, there are still a huge number that think 10-15% is being generous. There are no paid sick days, no paid vacation and very few offer health benefits. Same thing with retail. Minimum wage, crazy hours that get increased and decreased by season and unless you are in one of the "anchor stores" in a mall, vacation and sick time might or might not exist. You denigrate unions for some while seeking them for others without thought that teachers and public employees would then suffer the same conditions as retail clerks. I agree that food service and retail should be unionized but teachers and public employees should not be penalized for their success. quote: There IS protection for employees juliaoceania. They are the laws under the Department of Labor. If unions are banned, and some of the DOL laws are beefed up to include the issues the unions allegedly protect its members with, the unions are no longer necessary. If fact the industries where unions don't exist would benefit as well, which they don't now. Honestly, the majority of union time nowadays is spent lobbying in Washington, not spent looking out for the "little guy" which is why unions began in the first place. And you don't seem to understand the reason there IS protection and there are Laws under DOL is because of the lobbying activities of Unions which you hold in contempt. You think the Federal Govt and the States and private businesses will give benefits and higher salary out of the goodness of their heart? These were hard won successes by the unions. What nonsense in your thinking!

juliaoceania -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 12:38:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I wouldn't do that job for what they pay now, much less if they paid less... you have no idea how dehumanizing it is to be a prison guard... it ranks on the top of the list as one of the most depressing places to be. So you expect people to do that work for little compensation... All the more reason for this not to be a lifetime career. Mind you, I also favor changing our drug laws in such a way as to chop way back on the number of inmates we need to be guarding. It is a job that one can support a family on and have a life with. There are very few of those left, and you are advocating removing the few that exist. Like I said, my brother in law made 70k AFTER working doubles a few times a week, I do not call this an extraordinary amount. I support the repeal of three strikes your out to reduce prison population, but that does not mean that we need to cut the throats of men and women that are making a decent wage, but these folks ain't getting rich. I know this for a fact!

vincentML -> RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters (1/16/2010 12:40:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic If we really want to cure the disease, instead of just treating the worst of the symptoms, I think we need to fundamentally alter where our public servants come from. Mandatory national service. We replace the spoiled and bloated employment rolls with draftees, from the federal level, all the way down to a community services district. Patching potholes, administering the DMV eye test, writing parking tickets, guarding prison inmates... These aren't high skill jobs. It won't cover every job we need covered, but a barracks full of young people performing their national service is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than what we are doing. While you are at it why not just set up a Plantation system and reinstate good old slavery? The slaves were mandatory draftees as well. Whatever happened to the cause of individual liberty? Bleh!

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