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RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 3:15:22 PM   
Aynne88


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Fast response to no one in particular:

There is no such thing as "partial birth abortion". That is a term dreamt up by the right wing, and is *NOT* a medical term. 


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As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 3:25:26 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

OK Steel... tell me exacly when is it that human life begins? If you can pinpoint it to some time later, I'll agree with you. If not, than I will give the benifit of doubt, since the end result of human conception is an actual human being and not a pig or salamande, to life begining at the afore mentioned conception.


Well it aint' the second you get a nut there Jim.

Prolifer Fritz Baumgartner, MD says:

quote:

There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. Period. No debate.
Life Begins at the Beginning

So, if we accept this as the strictest definition for the sake of argument, then it begins when a clump of cells starts dividing - the first trimester thing actually has a religious basis, I can't remember the details, but traditionally, even religion didn't consider the fetus human until after that, but we won't quibble at this point - what Dr. Fritz isn't telling you is that this moment can take up to Two days after intercourse to occur:

quote:

In ideal conditions (ovulatory mucus and non-acidic pH), sperm live about 72 hours in the female, but the fertilizable life of the egg is only about 12 hours. Conception is more likely to result if intercourse takes place in the day or two before ovulation so everything is ready when the egg is in the correct place. In one study published recently in the "New England Journal of Medicine," no pregnancies occurred in the days after ovulation; instead, they resulted from live sperm waiting when ovulation occurred.
Best Time in Cycle to Conceive?

Thus the debate over emergency contraception is a non issue, even by the strictest standards, conception has not taken place, and that in essence, is what Croakly is referring to.

You have a right to your religious beliefs, but you have no right to force them on others, so if it prevents you from doing your job you signed up and are getting paid to do, then maybe you do need to look for another job more suited to your high standards.

I'm trying to figure out why a person would try to get hired in a abortion clinic, if they don't agree with it, unless it's to interfere with it - and, I don't think you have any "right" to be hired to do something you've already decided you aren't going to do, it's absurd.

It's like me looking for a carpenter job as long as I don't don't do violence to any trees - no sawing, no pounding nails - I'm pretty sure they'd probably tell me to go look for a bricklaying gig after they finished shitting themselves laughing in my face.

It's discrimination I tell ya.


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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 3:50:37 PM   
Mezrem


Posts: 311
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline 		No need to get your britches in a knot... you asked who would do it and I provided a link and a snip of the answer. Now you ask for much more specific data. I am one to admit that it is data that I don't have to offer up for review. I have no problem with people who make the hard choice to get an abortion. It is a choice I hope I and those I love are never forced to make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I said the last week
not third trimester. Show me any proof, any proof, that it is a procedure to abort where the mother is perfectly healthy and not in danger of death, and the fetus is NORMAL
and the procedure is for the selfishness of the pregnant woman
LAST WEEK

NOW tell me your stories

quote:

I said the last week
not third trimester. Show me any proof, any proof, that it is a procedure to abort where the mother is perfectly healthy and not in danger of death, and the fetus is NORMAL
and the procedure is for the selfishness of the pregnant woman
LAST WEEK

NOW tell me your stories


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(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 3:54:50 PM   
Mezrem


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Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline 		I was not aware, thank you for the information. I don't want to give the wrong impression and have people assume I'm a anti abortion nut. As I stated above while I don't agree with abortion as a form of birth control I don't believe that I have any right to make that choice for another person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Partial birth abortion has, to my knowledge, never been a elective procedure. Usually, it is done where the risk of carrying the baby through the last trimester of pregnancy virtually -guarantees- that the mother and fetus will both die. Where it is possible to do so, other methods of termination are used, but D&E, especially in a critically ill woman, is less likely to result in severe morbidity/mortality than the hysterotomy that is the alternative.

When D&E is done in a mother who is not terminal, it is still not an elective procedure, and is done where the baby is terminal already and will not survive the remainder of the pregnancy in any case, but where the mother is not in a position to be able to deliver -- a severely malformed baby, a baby in the "complete breech" or "transverse" position, or a baby whose head is swollen with fluid (hydrocephaly) to the point where it would never pass through the pelvic margins.

Calla



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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 4:01:40 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm#procedure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

last week of pregnancy?? who the hell does that??
bloody ridiculous statement




My original post as shown above said last week of pregnancy in response to Kiratas post. The added "details" came because there are many dishonest people here who would have claimed that danger to mum and or fetus was not the point. The fetus was still "aborted". And that is not the point, its not at the behest of a forgetful or selfish woman
Believe me im not even peeved yet...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem
I have no problem with people who make the hard choice to get an abortion. It is a choice I hope I and those I love are never forced to make.

I agree with you and appreciate you explaining it, :) my apologies for snarkin too fast



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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 4:33:33 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm#procedure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

last week of pregnancy?? who the hell does that??
bloody ridiculous statement




My original post as shown above said last week of pregnancy in response to Kiratas post. The added "details" came because there are many dishonest people here who would have claimed that danger to mum and or fetus was not the point. The fetus was still "aborted". And that is not the point, its not at the behest of a forgetful or selfish woman
Believe me im not even peeved yet...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem
I have no problem with people who make the hard choice to get an abortion. It is a choice I hope I and those I love are never forced to make.

I agree with you and appreciate you explaining it, :) my apologies for snarkin too fast




Lucylastic, nothing to add but you rock ! .


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 4:41:37 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88




Fast response to no one in particular:

There is no such thing as "partial birth abortion". That is a term dreamt up by the right wing, and is *NOT* a medical term. 



Yup, the medical term is D&E, or Dilation and Evacuation (not D&X or Dilation and Extraction)....

...not to be confused with D&C, which is Dilation and Curettage, in which the cervix is dilated and the uterine lining scraped away, and which is typically done for menstrual irregularities. When it is used for abortion, it is done only in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

Calla



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(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 4:43:44 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		Correct and thank you Calla. That right wing fear mongering term always pissed me off.  

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 5:29:14 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		7% of the vote is in. Brown 51%. Coakley 47%...

(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/19/2010 5:31:14 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88


Lucylastic, nothing to add but you rock ! .


comin from you Aynne, that is a hell of a compliment, thankyou:)


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(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/20/2010 3:22:38 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

kittin... the reason for these debates are because of for profit abortion as a contraceptive.

The issuse of rape, actual health of the mother, ect make up a minscule fraction to the number of abortions
done every year compared to abortions done solely because of the selfishness of the mother.

The American People overwhelmly support reasonable contraception, including the morning after pill but
abortion on demand has gotten out of hand.



First, you throw "for profit" out there like that make abortion more evil than other medical procedures..  All medical procedures are "for profit".

Second, since the leading cause of death among pregnant women is homicide, http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/411212  how do YOU know which women's life is in danger?  How do you know which woman are "selfish" and which are in fear for their own lives? 

Why in the world should you or I have a say?

As your saying abortion as gotten "out of hand" well I found this in the ProLifeBlogs of all places: 

"According to the report Abortion in the United States: Incidence and Access to Services, 2005 published by the Guttmacher Institute in the journal Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, the abortion rate is at its lowest level in over 30 years."  http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2008/01/report_on_abort.php

This thread was not supposed to be about abortion but this needed to be cleaned up.

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RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/20/2010 5:25:53 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
This thread was not supposed to be about abortion but this needed to be cleaned up.

Thanks, let me pitch in and point out that the "partial birth" propaganda is also a lie, that procedure's illegal.

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/20/2010 9:00:01 AM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		Catholicscomehome.org

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/21/2010 6:15:58 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
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Status: offline 		That probably would have been more amusing if I hadn't recently seen Deliver Us from Evil.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/22/2010 12:35:52 AM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Lets answer FatDoms question. OK I will. A cocktail waitress could not get fired if she complained about breathing smoke. Ms, Coakley seems to think that is ok..


Actually, yes she could. It would all depend on to whom she was complaining. If smoking was permitted in the establishment, and she was complaining to the customers about their smoking, she could and would be fired. If you are a non smoker and do not like to be around smoke, common sense says don't work in an establishment where you will be around it.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/22/2010 1:45:24 AM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

The issuse of rape, actual health of the mother, ect make up a minscule fraction to the number of abortions
done every year compared to abortions done solely because of the selfishness of the mother.

I missed this the first time around. Thanks to eyesopened for quoting it.

This thread is not about abortion (supposedly), but.... Dude, are you serious? Selfishness of the mother?? Bite me.

While there are some women who apparently use abortion as birth control (I really cannot imagine this, as there is nothing easy or nice about the procedure), for most it is a difficult and very painful decision. It was also one I had to make when I was all of 16 years old. I'm trying very hard not to play the "men can't get pregnant" card here, but I honestly don't think you have a clue.


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RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/22/2010 6:28:59 AM   
AsmodaisSin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
This thread was not supposed to be about abortion but this needed to be cleaned up.

Thanks, let me pitch in and point out that the "partial birth" propaganda is also a lie, that procedure's illegal.


Except that people like Dr. Tiller (Tiller the baby Killer) a doctor in New Jersey, and one other state still perform these operations.


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RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/22/2010 6:36:49 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Good for the doctors who have the courage to relieve pain and suffering in humanity. I commend their dedication and their risk-taking, faced as they are with the nutters that shoot them because of their crazy superstitious belief that it's okay to kill a doctor because he performs abortions.



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RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/22/2010 6:47:42 AM   
AsmodaisSin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Good for the doctors who have the courage to relieve pain and suffering in humanity. I commend their dedication and their risk-taking, faced as they are with the nutters that shoot them because of their crazy superstitious belief that it's okay to kill a doctor because he performs abortions.




Oh, yes.  Because it's much more noble to suction cup out the brain of a viable fetus.  Of course.  I get it now.  Do I agree that people should be shooting at them?  NO.  That's ILLEGAL.  But to stand there and say that people like Tiller didn't perform partial birth abortions is insane to me.  THAT is also illegal.  Of course, the legality of something never stopped people before...smoking pot, murdering, sodomizing. 


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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Martha Coakley: Devout Catholics 'Probably shouldn'... - 1/22/2010 6:59:15 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
Except that people like Dr. Tiller (Tiller the baby Killer) a doctor in New Jersey, and one other state still perform these operations.

False, Dr. Tiller does not STILL perform these operations, he was murdered.

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Profile   Post #: 180
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