RE: E Pluribus Unum (Full Version)

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AnimusRex -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 7:06:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It sounds arrogant but if you think a little more it is not.


[puts on ma thinkin' cap and thinks REAL hard...]

quote:

If Iran, Syria, Pakistan, perhaps Korea knew that they would be held truly accountable by a power that could do it…there would never have been this terrorist war in the first place.


OK, so after 9-11 we should have threatened to invade, conquer, and occupy Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, and for good measure, Korea.

Whew!
A big project. I mean, war of that maginitude would have equalled WWII.
in WWII we fielded an army of 103 Divisions, over a10 million men in uniform. (Today we have 10 Divisions, and about 650,000 soldiers).
FDR essentially socialized the entire US industrial base, issuing dictates to the automakers, aricraft industry, etc as to what they could make or not. He had to ration flour, sugar, rubber, and most other consumer items.
Oh, and the federal debt spiraled to 120% of the GDP. (Todays monstrous debt is a little over half that).
But hey, we gotta do what we gotta do. And if it takes instituting socialism to win a war, who am I to argue?

quote:

They have no industry…they have very little ability to maintain a war on their own. They need the support of the Iran’s in this world to fight at all.


Right. The 9-11 plotters used the help of Iran to buy exotic military hardware like boxcutters, take airplane training sessions in Florida, and oh yeah, they had duct tape smuggled in from Syria. I think Pakistan gave them the tip money for the strippers in New Jersey, but I have to check on that.
But your point is valid- terrorism cannot survive without expensive and large scale military supplies- its not like you can blow up a Federal Building with only, like, a truck filled with fuel oil and fertilizer.

Thinking a bit is very helpful indeed.



LadyEllen -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 7:09:07 PM)

the only thing I know about European royalty and banking is that many of the descendants of the Hapsburgs and von Hohenzollerns are merchant bankers these days

E



Real0ne -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 7:18:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

the only thing I know about European royalty and banking is that many of the descendants of the Hapsburgs and von Hohenzollerns are merchant bankers these days

E


yup and the law of the land..... the common law.... has all been converted in the courts to merchantile under the admiralty.

Of course they dont tell people that and they go into court not knowing the rules and get burned and burned and burned!

Those of us that know the rules they want you out as fast as they can get you out.  Especially if there are people in the audience so I invite all my friends as witnesses with pens and paper to take notes since they often do not have reporters in the nisi pruis municipal-corporate courts here.



Real0ne -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 7:25:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It sounds arrogant but if you think a little more it is not.


[puts on ma thinkin' cap and thinks REAL hard...]

quote:

If Iran, Syria, Pakistan, perhaps Korea knew that they would be held truly accountable by a power that could do it…there would never have been this terrorist war in the first place.


OK, so after 9-11 we should have threatened to invade, conquer, and occupy Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, and for good measure, Korea.

Whew!
A big project. I mean, war of that maginitude would have equalled WWII.
in WWII we fielded an army of 103 Divisions, over a10 million men in uniform. (Today we have 10 Divisions, and about 650,000 soldiers).
FDR essentially socialized the entire US industrial base, issuing dictates to the automakers, aricraft industry, etc as to what they could make or not. He had to ration flour, sugar, rubber, and most other consumer items.
Oh, and the federal debt spiraled to 120% of the GDP. (Todays monstrous debt is a little over half that).
But hey, we gotta do what we gotta do. And if it takes instituting socialism to win a war, who am I to argue?

quote:

They have no industry…they have very little ability to maintain a war on their own. They need the support of the Iran’s in this world to fight at all.

Right. The 9-11 plotters used the help of Iran to buy exotic military hardware like boxcutters, take airplane training sessions in Florida, and oh yeah, they had duct tape smuggled in from Syria. I think Pakistan gave them the tip money for the strippers in New Jersey, but I have to check on that.
But your point is valid- terrorism cannot survive without expensive and large scale military supplies- its not like you can blow up a Federal Building with only, like, a truck filled with fuel oil and fertilizer.

Thinking a bit is very helpful indeed.





win a war?

What war?

puppy chow.

Try an imperialist move against a ridiculously underarmed adversary to confiscate their lands under the ruse of war to prop up the sinking dollar and, try and quash the euro, and gather collateral to underwrite the bonds for the next 70 year term, all while keeping england, america as the dominant power in the world for a little while longer.

read a few of brzstinkskis books if you want a better picture



Aneirin -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 7:45:06 PM)

So, when everyone let alone the viewers of this forum understand we are all going to shit, the USA first, my question is, what are you all going to do about it ? Lobby your MP or just go about your business and keep your head down hoping no one notices........? To remember something, them in power control them with guns and special powers do what is necessary.












LadyEllen -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 7:52:38 PM)

There need not be the same sort of repression as previous models have occasioned Aneirin. I expect little to change in the day to day lives of the ordinary person - they will be left undisturbed and maintained in the illusion that they do have a say in things, whilst all the time the decisions are made far up and away in the ethereal world of the regime, just like before. What has changed is that the choice presented to the people is obviously and overtly rigged and manipulated to the desired ends. Vote how you like, it will make no difference whether you choose A or B, you still get C.

E 




pahunkboy -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 7:56:13 PM)

..The way I understand it- at first it wont be that bad- but in 10 years- the outcome will be dramatic.

However based on how everything revolves around $- in the US,  and being that it is always some sort of hyper campaign cycle these days- the lobbiests and PR people started right way on all this.



Real0ne -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 7:56:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

So, when everyone let alone the viewers of this forum understand we are all going to shit, the USA first, my question is, what are you all going to do about it ? Lobby your MP or just go about your business and keep your head down hoping no one notices........? To remember something, them in power control them with guns and special powers do what is necessary.


who knows.
Personally I think to many americans have been far to perfectly indoctrinated to do anything about it even though we have more arms in the hands of the public than the worlds armies and civilians combined and that is only known arms.

I advocate the courts because we can force them and I advocate people waking up and forming common law grand juries in each county of the union.  Learn the use and enormous power of using the notaries to conduct court proceedings out of court.
get the assemblies going again.  inform the juries that they have the power to nullify the law and go beyond what the judge sqwuaks about.

Judges were intended to be [directors] in the sense to keep the defendant from getting screwed by the plaintif not judge anything but people unbelievable give them the authority to do it.   I dont and if they try I hold them in contempt of MY court!

(oh and that is not the case in criminal if you murdered someone)

Watch all the peanut gallery have fun with that! LOL



kdsub -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 9:51:11 PM)

I'm not talking about 9/11...and you know it...I am talking about the war today...so tell me do you think the taliban have factories to make explosives, ammunition, weapons of all kinds?

They are being supplied in an organized manner from one state or more. If we found proof like we did in Iraq of insurgents being supplied by Iran ...Then yes we should make the threat. Or do you like our sons and daughters to stand around like targets stationary among a mobile force.

Butch

ps...Korea would be the only challenge.. the rest would fall with a few divisions and air support...don't turn them into supermen...they are not.

Their industry could be easily destroyed which would negate their support…remember most other Arab nations would love to see Irans power taken out…



kdsub -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/23/2010 10:08:15 PM)

One more thing...I don't want you to get the idea I'm a warmonger...I was against the Iraq war because it did not address who attacked us.

I'm against the Afghan war as well... I think we should put a 1000,000 more soldiers to secure the country long enough to train their army and be out of there in two years. Leave it to them if they want freedom or tyranny.

But this piecemeal war is killing us and them and innocents... It is a stupid way to fight a war... If they insist to fight this kind of war then all out is the only way to win.

I would rather they use the option in the second paragraph above.

Butch



Politesub53 -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 2:58:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Maybe this debt by the UK would make up for what we owed the King.

And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn.

Butch


Butch, sorry for the delay. Here are the figures of what Britain owed, and was owed in return, after WWI


Britain owed to US in 1934: £866mAdjusted by RPI to 2006: £40bnOther nations owed Britain: £2.3bnAdjusted by RPI to 2006: £104bn 
These figures agree with your post yet as you can see , we were owed more than we owed out, and by a considerable margin at that. Given the Britain was almost bankrupt after WWI, that we had lost something like a million of our workforce, and that in some places whole towns had been wiped out ( see Pals battalions ) It is therefore hardly suprising that we struggled to pay the US, but we did, right up until Hoovers moratorium. We even pain during 1922 when inflation was at a rampant 20 %

Neither of the above debts have been cancelled, so as soon as we get paid, we can pay you....[;)]



Politesub53 -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 3:45:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

I give out far to much information to chase after every tid bit of what I say but I do go this far.  If I run across it in the future I will post it.

I gave you and others the information needed for those who wish to research the subject matter and if you wish to claim that because I do not bend to posting digital trash that in reality is hearsay anyway as proof well we can all have a good laugh :)



Anyone can make an absurd claim with no supporting link. You posted something as FACT and are unable to back it up. Thats bogus debating in my book, even if history shows us it is your Modus Operandi.



Real0ne -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 4:49:48 AM)

quote:


Neither of the above debts have been cancelled, so as soon as we get paid, we can pay you....

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile [Send Private Message] Report | Post #: 71
RE: E Pluribus Unum - 1/24/2010 3:45:20 AM
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

I give out far to much information to chase after every tid bit of what I say but I do go this far.  If I run across it in the future I will post it.

I gave you and others the information needed for those who wish to research the subject matter and if you wish to claim that because I do not bend to posting digital trash that in reality is hearsay anyway as proof well we can all have a good laugh :)



Anyone can make an absurd claim with no supporting link. You posted something as FACT and are unable to back it up. Thats bogus debating in my book, even if history shows us it is your Modus Operandi.


I told you the name of the book and where to get it and if that is not good enough for you, that you would rather mischaractize the matter then I guess you get the big fuck you eh....



eyesopened -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 4:57:58 AM)

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed by any means.  I'm not much of a history scholar.  I do remember a few things over the course of my own lifetime.  I know from listening to my grandparents what things were like for average Americans during the Great Depression.  I know what my father told me about the horrors of Fascism.  I was told that we had learned our lessons, had put rules, regulations and laws into effect so that those horrors would never happen again.

I watched as the Regan administration went on a campaign to undo all those laws and regulations.  I could not believe what I was told, that a wild animal will be so grateful for being let out of its cage that it would use its power for the good of its former captor.

I watched as big industry was allowed to swallow small business, big banks getting "too big to fail"  all the things the banking acts of the 1930s was suppose to prevent, now deregulated and even bigger than they ever were before 1929.

I watched as oil and energy deregulation created Enron.

I've watched Greed become the universal One True God.

I've seen the National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive give any US President unlimited power.  I've seen the Patriot Act take away personal freedom.

I have seen all these things and yet I have not heard any logical, cohesive idea on how to change any of it.  I have not seen a "teaparty" or a "grassroots" or any group really willing to tackle something something this large.  Have we slid so far down the slippery slope that all we can do is accept the fall? 



Musicmystery -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 9:57:32 AM)

For 50 years we had good banking legislation, and virtually no financial scandals/crises.

Then we lifted them--and the Savings & Loan scandal, stock market crash......

Then we repeated the experiment with the mortgage industry and derivatives and the credit crisis.

Countries that have weathered this well also have good banking regulation in place.

We are being raped, ever more blatantly, all while people buy the "less regulation is the key" lie.

Unregulated markets don't work well in an industrial global society. They haven't since the 19th century.



vincentML -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 10:08:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

"Just say what you see Slv4"

I contend that this is the position the US finds itself dangerously near now, as the inheritance of GWB and the result of the SCOTUS decision on corporate participation in the political process, next to the failure by Obama to bring actual change in the face of a Congress hellbent on personal self interest and the ongoing and in some instances rabid campaigning by the radical element that maintains itself within the GOP and its affiliated mouthpieces.

This position is one which compares well with Fascism. The only element missing is overt authoritarianism, however this is present covertly in the form of peer pressure in the lower orders by way of 4 and 5, and should readily become overt as the economic situation deteriorates into stagnation as it must given the influence of the global market and 1, 2 and 3, especially if combined with the "terrorist threat".

Perhaps I read too much into it. I certainly hope so.

E


Lady Ellen; sorry I have come so late to this very interesting thread. I have not read all the posts, unfortunately. However, I do think it is unfair to blame it all on GWB, whom I must defend in this case as much as I am no fan and as much as I believe "Bush lied, troops died" is an accurate statement.

Historically American Domestic and Foreign Policy has been driven by two concepts: American Exceptionalism and Manifest Destiny. The first was remarked by Alexis de Touqueville cerca 1830s on his visit here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

"American exceptionalism refers to the theory that the United States occupies a special niche among the nations of the world[1] in terms of its national credo, historical evolution, political and religious institutions and unique origins."

The latter first appeared in 1839. Both have driven the rabid expansionism of this country across the North American Continent and now into the World.

I might add manifest destiny is not the exclusive domain of America. "Westward the course of empire takes its way." Irish philosopher and clergy man, George Berkeley 1726.

Manifest Destiny was the rallying cry of competition in the race between the Slave Power of the South and the Industrial Power of the North for expansion of territory since the 1840s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny



Politesub53 -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 10:38:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealOne

I told you the name of the book and where to get it and if that is not good enough for you, that you would rather mischaractize the matter then I guess you get the big fuck you eh....



Youre correct, it isnt good enough for me. Its nice to see that when asked for clarification all you can produce is foul language.



LadyEllen -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 11:53:36 AM)

Hi V

I'm not very sure what point youre trying to make sorry - could you maybe expand?

I attribute GWB with much of this for the deregulation, the "market knows best" approach, the "Patriot" legislation - all contributory factors to producing the scenario. But it would be true to say that his legacy is more about the acceleration and strengthening of the scenario I would agree, it being a direction obviously attractive to many both past and present.

E



vincentML -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 1:47:37 PM)

I am trying to say that our expansionism and imperialism is not at all new. It has been driven by the two concepts I mentioned. The common folk have always been manipulated and carried along by a faux patriotism overlying these two principles. The Elite have always benefited as a result, never the working class. So, this is not a new fascism imo, E. It is well embedded in American history. Apologies if I am off the point.



LadyEllen -> RE: E Pluribus Unum (1/24/2010 1:53:28 PM)

No. I think then that I understood you and I would agree to some extent. I think its the relatively sudden recent placing of almost all the extra pieces otherwise missing to date which I find alarming. The ingredients are nearly all present.

E



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