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Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 10:29:54 AM   
Mercnbeth


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I re-read my post on the first page of  the "Here's My Challenge" thread. It seems that that thread has gone on a different path, now we're in the name calling, he said/she said, and hindsight accuracy mode. Also, Jim & Ann don't seem to be up to the challenge they set because they've never been back. No matter. I'm critical of MY post in the thread.

The problem that I have with my post was that it was contrary to my philosophy of if you are going to be critical and condemn you must pay for that right with an alternative. Well, my post was not only critical but down right depressing. Although I've obtained that magic number and now have to concede the fact that I'm a half century old, I'm NOT ready to willingly surrender to an "inevitable" mentality and take a rocking chair on my front deck and observe my Country self destruct.

I challenged myself to come up with a solution that would work AND most important, be reasonable and, perhaps, acceptable to both sides. I won't take credit for the concept. The inspiration came from a college professor who befriended me. (I think his was the first hookah I came in contact.) He, was from Egypt and taught a course called "Arabia Without Sultans". The course was a very interesting and different perspective for 1975. Anyway, during one of those "intellectual" discussions, perhaps inspired by the substance in the hookah, he said that in reality Democracy only provided a person with one decision to make, yes or no. If you liked what was occurring you voted for the party and person in power, if you didn't you voted against them. I wish I could remember his name, but that brain cell didn't make it out of New Jersey.

My proposed "solution" is this; a grassroots movement based on this yes/no concept. Forget all party and 'special interest' issues. Swallow hard and regardless of party affiliation make the basic and fundamental issue become - we don't like what is going on and we blame EVERYBODY who, as an elected official, had the ability to change the path of the Country.

If you go back to the "Challenge" thread, there is a common denominator - nobody really feels good about either political party. Many commented that there is really no distinction between the parties. It's also conceded that under the current rules, a third party is not viable. I agree 100%! What we should do is at every opportunity - primary elections, as well as general. Vote "NO" for the incumbents. NO to every incumbent; from the most inconsequential school board election, local/City officials, Mayor, State Representatives. Everyone in office is responsible for the condition we find ourselves. Everyone has "earned" the consequence. This solution would give those claiming no reason to vote, a reason and one vote - NO!

This should be acceptable for the President Bush/Republican haters because if it works both the Presidential office, and Congress would be Democratically controlled. In our circle of friends, even the staunched right wing conservatives aren't in support of the growing government spending, religious influence in the Republican party, and the lack of vision by the current party leaders. If as a consequence we had a Democratic President and Congress elected because of this movement, I wouldn't be concerned about that result. I've already decided this will be how I'll base my vote. We wouldn't be voting to elect on one issue. It would show the power brokers that there is a way to get rid of ineffectual government. It would discount all the special interests from the "save the spotted owl" to the "NRA".

Would everyone be willing to discount all personal hot button issues? How much would you sacrifice to affect a change in course? I wouldn't consider it a breach of integrity by voting for someone who issues are in opposition to mine because of my overall believe that the penultimate objective is the betterment of the United States. I'll leave it to those inclined to critique to determine if it's a rationalization. I just don't want to surrender! I don't want to fell as helpless for myself or my progeny as I do now. As much as I joke about it, I really don't want to watch the view from my house as Los Angeles is consumed by some event generated by foreign or domestic forces.

Anyway, I don't feel the hypocrite by criticizing and complaining without offering an alternative. Simplistic? Naive? "What about MY "great" Congressman who's bringing back Millions of "pork" from Washington?" Well, I pose a "challenge" to people thinking those thoughts to provide an alternative solution. 

Of course we'll need a catchy name for the movement. Being from the East Coast, Italian, and the fact that this would be an "underdog" movement, I thought of "Rocky" and came up with "Y.O.!" It stands for "YOU'RE OUT!" It would make a great chant at rallies, and a easy rallying cry signifying what we would be trying to accomplish. If I could think up appropriate words for the letters - "NEXT" would also work. But naming rights can come later. For now...
What do you think?????
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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 11:44:52 AM   
incognitoinmass


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Voting no for one candidate means voting yes for their opponent.  I don't see how this changes anything.  On the one hand, this would change the leadership, sure.  Then what?  You think the newly elected will think they won for any other reason than that they deserved it?  Same same.

Assuming you could do this successfully over several election cycles, politicians would be inclined to become even less responsive.  Once in office, you're going to throw them out, anyway.

If you could get enough people organized to pull this off, you should be able to get enough people to field a candidate that you could actually vote FOR rather than simply against.

Voting NO to everyone is not a solution.  It's just one more cop out. 

IMHO.

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 11:51:26 AM   
Chaingang


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In effect, you are attempting campaign finance reform and term limits by another method. The only reason it wouldn't work is the usual one - can you get enough votes to make it happen? And that answer is most likely a resounding "No."

I am with you in spirit though. At least I don't see us as divided by oceans of ideas - I expect we're closer than not politically.

I currently have grave doubts about the voting system. I actually think even our representative democracy is in retreat. I look at our young people and they don't seem educated enough in basic civics to form coherent political worldviews. All we have left is ridicule - which is your solution ultimately. We have nothing to which we will assent to say "yes" so we will just say "no" instead. That's a kind of nihilism.

What comes with the dawning new era?

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 12:04:23 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

All we have left is ridicule - which is your solution ultimately.


Ridicule was the post in the "Challenge" thread. This would be action as the result of ridicule. It doesn't require a candidate. Mobilization under a candidate requires agreement on the candidate and his/her political and personal background. One candidate will not matter.

The goal here is simple - CHANGE. Change the status quo. The mobilization is the result of asking the question; "Are you happy with the status quo?"

Where to you envision the young people who you reference, getting educated? Any education will be reflective of status quo.

quote:

Voting no for one candidate means voting yes for their opponent.  I don't see how this changes anything.


REALLY? A 40+ year Congressmen getting "YO'd" would change a lot. And yes - fail to effect change and the next batch would get kicked out too. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? How would the threat of termination make someone less responsive? It's very effective with my employees!

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 12:20:39 PM   
Chaingang


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BTW, your idea reminds me of the Davis "special election" in California. The solution to Davis was just another problem and now we have the Enron apologist Governator.

While I hope our votes do mean something, and I while I hope that our politicians still have the power to effect real change, it's hard not think of our politicians as mere figureheads for a problem we can't quite reach. Governments are created by people, but pretty quickly things get taken over by the monied elite. I just think that's a fact of political history no matter how one turns it around for contemplation.

I think we need to rethink the purposes of government, who can and cannot participate and how, and we may need to rethink even our most fundamental concepts of political rights. Our own system is predicated on the idea of private property - and yet in a world of of increasing billions it becomes harder to justify the rights of the "haves" against the rights of the "have nots." Law would seem to be the weapon the wealthy wield against the poor (I was actually taught this at law school) and that motive is quite detectable in ideas like a "poll tax." But the basic question remains:

Does wealth equal political justice?



< Message edited by Chaingang -- 3/24/2006 12:23:35 PM >


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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 12:24:50 PM   
incognitoinmass


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quote:

currently have grave doubts about the voting system. I actually think even our representative democracy is in retreat. I look at our young people and they don't seem educated enough in basic civics to form coherent political worldviews


So says every generation about young people.  Fortunately --- or unfortunately, I suppose--- young people do not historically turn out for elections in great numbers vs older demographics.  

That being said education in civics is sorely lacking.  There was a time when every student had to participate in a civics course.  Not any more. 

As far as representative government being in retreat I don't think that is the case.  More people voted in 2004 than ever before and turn out was high compared to elections towards the end of the 20th century.

I think that the operations of government are much more transparent than ever before.  We didn't get to see the sausage being made in Congress before Cspan.  Presidents' relationships with White House correspondents was less adversarial when the reporters weren't all competing for face time on the evening news.  While some press in days gone by was no less sensational than it is today it was certainly less pervasive.  There is a whole industry now of pundits who make a grand living saying the most outrageous things about politicians of whom they disapprove.  All 24/7.

Just as watching your 401(k) 24/7 will lead to undue stress and bad decisions, so does microexamining every decision every day made by the nation's government officials.

My dad is fond of saying that if your standard is perfection you will spend a lifetime disappointed. 

Republicans expect their political opponents to be perfect.  If they're not, they scream to the bloody heavens.  Same for the Democrats.  All amplified a thousand fold by sympathetic media, whether old guard or new. 

Another thing that  strikes me is as different from my youth is that these days  folks seem so willing , even eager, to embrace a sky is falling view of almost any news they encounter.  

That's not healthy.  It's neurotic.

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 12:29:22 PM   
kisshou


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Mercnbeth

wow! I was really suprised reading this post because usually your ideas are so great. This idea is bad because what if the opponent is worse than the incumbent.

usually most candidates are elected over their stance on one issue (abortion, death penalty, taxes)

a friend of mine who is seriously into local politics created a voter guide where she asked all the candidates the same five questions. A pamphlet was made of each candidate with their responses so it was very easy to make comparisons. She then distributed them for free at churches all over the county. This had a huge impact on the election and definately changed the outcome.

I really admire the fact that you are willing to work for change

well wishes
kisshou

< Message edited by kisshou -- 3/24/2006 12:30:25 PM >

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 12:29:28 PM   
incognitoinmass


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quote:

REALLY? A 40+ year Congressmen getting "YO'd" would change a lot. And yes - fail to effect change and the next batch would get kicked out too. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? How would the threat of termination make someone less responsive? It's very effective with my employees!


The threat of termination is always there.  Every election cycle you can say no by voting for a different candidate, either in the primary or the election. 

'No' is not a political philosophy.  



< Message edited by incognitoinmass -- 3/24/2006 12:38:52 PM >


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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 12:37:53 PM   
incognitoinmass


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Government in the United States is the single largest employer. 

Government in the United States has the highest payroll.

Government in the United States has the largest budget.

Government in the United States is the largest landholder.

Taxes are for many families their single largest expense.

Perhaps the problem and source of concern is not the politicians who come and go but the shear scope of power that it wields.  Try to think of a part of your life that some agency or branch of government isn't involved in. 



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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 1:19:10 PM   
cloudboy


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War is the single greatest driver of US Federal Gov't expansion. Any attempt at fiscal responsibility would have to defang the war machine. As is, I think fiscal irresponsibility will end up doing the job.

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 1:22:30 PM   
incognitoinmass


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Providing for the national defense is one of the legitimate responsibilities of government. 

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 1:23:23 PM   
michaelGA


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the only political solution is to get ride of the politicians and put someone REAL up there.

< Message edited by michaelGA -- 3/24/2006 1:24:44 PM >


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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 1:40:08 PM   
incognitoinmass


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quote:

the only political solution is to get ride of the politicians and put someone REAL up there.


As long as there is politics there will be politicians. 

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But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 1:42:15 PM   
michaelGA


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so...get rid of the politics as well


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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 2:54:56 PM   
Mercnbeth


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Tidbits to consider:

The Presidential election, by a wide margin, generates the largest turnout of eligible voters. Last election, 2004, generated the largest number of voters, but the turnout was still only 56.7% of voting age population.

Here are the results from 1960: (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election
quote:

 




Election
Voting Age Population ¹
Turnout
% Turnout of VAP

2004
215,694,000
122,295,345
56.70%

2000
205,815,000
105,586,274
51.30%

1996
196,511,000
96,456,345
49.08%

1992
189,529,000
104,405,155
55.09%

1988
182,778,000
91,594,693
50.11%

1984
174,466,000
92,652,680
53.11%

1980
164,597,000
86,515,221
52.56%

1976
152,309,190
81,555,789
53.55%

1972
140,776,000
77,718,554
55.21%

1968
120,328,186
73,211,875
60.84%

1964
114,090,000
70,644,592
61.92%

1960
109,159,000
68,838,204
63.06%


Care to guess the margin of victory in these elections? No matter what election you look at, the plurality of the victor was considerably less than the number or percentage of people who could vote but didn't.

To succeed, this idea doesn't need to gain a plurality of it only needs to increase the votes by a minimal percentage to the non-incumbent. In effect it's the same way any Republican candidate gets elected. Registered Republicans are not the majority in the US. The represent the majority if few states, yet they win? How? Yes - they were "declared" the winner. (Those wearing tin foil hats please indulge me for a moment and we'll consider hanging chads and broken voting booths supplied by Holliburton in the next segment. - Thanks!) They win because of the people alienated by the Democrats or one of their platform planks and/or the the people who stay home.

I'd target the disenfranchised and those who, similar to the CA - Davis example, just think it would be "cool" or "fun" to kick out the incumbents. I'd bet the majority of the MTV generation would be on board. It would take a "Dean-style" website (WHOO HAAH!)

I don't see any downside. Even if it moves the percentage by 2% it would make an impact. Would any opponent , or group of opponents be worse than the collective group running the country and your life now? Regardless if you are talking about censorship, abortion, or the makeup of the Supreme Court; your "favorite" son contributed directly to the current situation. Are you all unaware that people vote against or for a bill that they know will pass or won't pass anyway just so they can come back and shrug their shoulders and say "I tried"?

Here in LA today kids walked out of their schools to 'protest' the enforcement of the illegal alien laws. Over the weekend there will be a number of these protests throughout the country. Consider this one issue. My guess is you're focusing on the wrong issue. I see the issue as this; the people who run our our schools, paid for by our tax dollars didn't do anything about it. Compound that by the police forming an "escort" for this event that had no permit, and occurred today, instead of as scheduled and permitted tomorrow, only because it's 75 degrees and sunny on a Friday in LA. The downside is the anarchy, lack of respect, and disorganization of the people in authority. The upside - everyone of those marching over 18 represents a "YO" voter.

Based upon these replies there are more people on some form of Government welfare than I imagined. Or you're much happier with the status quo than you let on in these type threads.

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 3:13:12 PM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Care to guess the margin of victory in these elections? No matter what election you look at, the plurality of the victor was considerably less than the number or percentage of people who could vote but didn't.


Simply because of that ridiculous electoral college.  Mind you, I do not know a suitable alternative to it.

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 4:01:27 PM   
kisshou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
My guess is you're focusing on the wrong issue.



This is what I was trying to point out in my post, In my county you could have a candidate who would create jobs, make the schools better, lower taxes etc but if he is pro abortion he will not get elected. I would love to see the statistics on people who go to church who also vote. In my little corner of the country the biggest influence over the election is the churches. 

All it really takes for a candidate to get elected is to agree with the one major issue the voters have and that outweighs all the rest. I wish you could come up with a solution for this problem.

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 4:56:36 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

Providing for the national defense is one of the legitimate responsibilities of government.


Our capabilities have little to do with "defense," and your statment doesn't address the cause of our exploding budget deficit.

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 5:29:06 PM   
caitlyn


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From the perspective of a person that has only followed politics for a few years, I agree that change needs to happen. One of the first thing I noticed when I started following politics a few years ago, was just how childish the whole process is ... not at all worthy of thinking, intelligent and responsible adults.
 
Thinking people that are acting responsibly wouldn't have spent so much time in the last election worrying about how many reserve meetings the President attended, or what Senator Kerry did in Vietnam. All those things did was deflect the voting masses from the real issues ... the issues of TODAY, that need to be addressed TODAY.
 
Thinking people that are acting responsibly would have their heals dug in so fucking hard that there is no room to ever change positions based on the things we all see. Isn't it the responsibility of thinking people, to make decisions objectively?
 
Political talk radio, just needs to go away. It serves no real purpose, other than to influence voters based on who is the better host.
 
Then, there are the veterans, and be warned, this is going to sound bad and be an unpopular statement. Look, everyone values the service of veterans and those that are serving right now. Trust me, I sure do, and I wouldn't want to have to do it ... but when you discuss politics with some veterans, they act like they actually died for their country. This isn't Starship Troopers ... you don't have to fight the bugs, to get a vote.
 
Ok ... this just turned into a rant, and for that I'm sorry. Perhaps it's just frustration, or perhaps I'm just guilty of doing all the things I just ranted about.
 
We need change. The system looks broken, and if it looks like a duck, it probably is.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 3/24/2006 5:31:30 PM >

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RE: Political Solution? - 3/24/2006 6:28:24 PM   
ScooterTrash


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quote:

  usually most candidates are elected over their stance on one issue (abortion, death penalty, taxes)


quote:

All it really takes for a candidate to get elected is to agree with the one major issue the voters have and that outweighs all the rest. I wish you could come up with a solution for this problem.

 
I generally don't hash politics, mostly because that what it usually appears to be, hash, but it seems a few have figured out the cause of the effect that Merc is trying to counteract. It get's old hearing about who is for this and who is for that, when in reality the politicians should be the public servants they are supposed to be, and do what the people want.
 
You want to be a Senator..good for you...In my book, I don't give a damned about what you stand for..I care about if you are going to represent MY (my being the majority belief of all the people in the constituancy) wants, needs and preferences. Example; Yes, you can be against abortion personally, but if I and 51% of the voters in your area, district, state, whatever, are for it, then you WILL vote for it, that's the way it is supposed to work. If we could just get the folks on the hill back in that mindset, where their stand on the issue carried ONE vote just like everyone elses, maybe we wouldn't have to keep throwing them out or YOing them..lol.. Then, we could base who we put in office by their honesty, integrity and ability to get the job done. Wouldn't that be a new concept, or perhaps is that an old concept!!!!

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