RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans

RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/27/2010 6:03:28 PM)
What about blow back?

BKSir -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/27/2010 6:09:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger quote: Tough. You might have the right to decide whether or not I can join your club, but you should not have the right to decide whether I can do a job based on anything other than my ability. Just out of curiosity, would you consider the reverse to be true also? Say there was applying for a job as a bartender at a gay bar, or a lab tech at an AIDS clinic, or whatever LGBT orgnization have you. In the interview it came out that the applicant was a fundamentalist born again christian. Would the LGBT organization have the right to say 'thanks but no thanks' or would the government have to step in and through use of force and intimidation require the LGBT organization to go againt its principals? I'd have no problem hiring them if they were the most qualified and able individual. I'd also have no problem firing them if they let their personal ideals get in the way of their job. My question is more, if they're such a place that discriminates in such a way, why would I *want* to work there?

Marc2b -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/27/2010 8:10:13 PM)
quote: Not everyone has the luxury of finding work that suits them and their lifestyle, often, in fact, very often in places where work is scarce, one has to take what is on offer, usually the highest paid work is the target, if not that, anything that pays a a wage that enables a person to do better than welfare. Just do the job that is required of them, take home the pay and live. Sometimes despite what our personal belief is, we just have to swallow it, if we want to move forward. It is true that many, if not most, people have to settle for less than their dream job but let’s not overstate the case here. How often are we going to have a situation where a person is desperate for any job and the only one available is at a place where someone of "their kind" (whatever their kind may be) is not welcome? It is never easy when we have to balance different rights, in this case the right not to be discriminated against versus freedom of religion (and, to an extent, freedom of association). Where do we find the balance?

JonnieBoy -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/27/2010 8:47:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger quote: Tough. You might have the right to decide whether or not I can join your club, but you should not have the right to decide whether I can do a job based on anything other than my ability. Just out of curiosity, would you consider the reverse to be true also? Say there was applying for a job as a bartender at a gay bar, or a lab tech at an AIDS clinic, or whatever LGBT orgnization have you. In the interview it came out that the applicant was a fundamentalist born again christian. Would the LGBT organization have the right to say 'thanks but no thanks' or would the government have to step in and through use of force and intimidation require the LGBT organization to go againt its principals? STOP ... I'm not claiming to have studied the entire thread ... will being "straight" do ? ... why the fuck with the religious crusade ? I've been the straight bartender in a "gay" bar ... something is starting to stink around here ... As Rockspider says ... It shows irrelevancy. Pirate

JonnieBoy -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/27/2010 8:50:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy What about blow back? I don't smoke ... what about a few shavings tor a cup of "tea" in the morning ? Pirate

eyesopened -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/28/2010 4:31:30 AM)
"The Church" as if there is only one..... The Lutherans have tip-toed around this subject. The best they could come up with is homosexuals are children of God and are as loved as any other. The only "sin" would be male homosexual sex. Homosexuals can be ministers in the Lutheran church. According to the Lutherans, you can be a celibate homosexual minister. There are no rules whatsoever regarding homosexual members or employees. All are welcome into the "club". The bible is strangely silent about lesbians. I can only surmise that Moses liked girl-on-girl action. There are several christian denominations who could give a rat's ass what your sexuality is. Here's just one list for just the state of Florida: http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/us_florida.htm But I strongly believe that if a job is offered, the first consideration needs to be the experience and ability of the individual to do that job. Period. I also believe that it is lunacy to want to work in a place that is so uncomfortable that every day is a living hell. Life is too short and money is just money. We spend nearly 2/3 of our lives at work, why be miserable.

AsmodaisSin -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/28/2010 4:46:24 AM)
The Church, as in the Holy Roman Church. Catholicism. Most other forms of Christianity. Y'all are missing the fundamental issue with all of this: In the church, homosexuality is a sin. If you are a sinner, you go into confession, pray to God, etc. Except that, in the Catholic church, after you've repented, you're SUPPOSED to stop doing the sin. (This is not an open invitation to discuss OTHER Catholics and their possible sinning; we're discussing homosexuality; don't deviate please). How can you sit in a church as a worker, and defy all that it stands for by just being? Why would you even want to be a member of that organization? It's in doctrine, it's in everything that the church is. I think that as long as the church is not accepting tax dollars, they should have the right to deny homosexuals jobs, especially since homosexuals defy everything that the church stands for. It's nothing personal. I would expect them to deny me a job if they found out I partook in sodomy.

Aneirin -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/28/2010 9:18:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Not everyone has the luxury of finding work that suits them and their lifestyle, often, in fact, very often in places where work is scarce, one has to take what is on offer, usually the highest paid work is the target, if not that, anything that pays a a wage that enables a person to do better than welfare. Just do the job that is required of them, take home the pay and live. Sometimes despite what our personal belief is, we just have to swallow it, if we want to move forward. It is true that many, if not most, people have to settle for less than their dream job but let’s not overstate the case here. How often are we going to have a situation where a person is desperate for any job and the only one available is at a place where someone of "their kind" (whatever their kind may be) is not welcome? It is never easy when we have to balance different rights, in this case the right not to be discriminated against versus freedom of religion (and, to an extent, freedom of association). Where do we find the balance? Regarding your first paragraph, it has happened, I know of animal lovers having to work in an abbatoir, because they were the only jobs going in the town, that was mid eighties in Liverpool where there was officially recorded 25% unemployment. The political slogan at the time, was get on yer bike and find work, fine, on my push Iron I used to cycle 15 miles to work every day, for peanut pay, ( which was £20 a week more than the then YOP ( so called youth opportunities programme, basically paying an absolute minimum pay for unemployed youths to sweep the park) scheme, if some remember those), no one had cars. I had a succession of crap jobs I didn't want, but hey, it was a job and we learned to grab what was going, whatever it was, swallow your pride and work if you could find work before I got fed up and joined the mob, which led onto better things, one of them being getting out of the area in which I had lived all my life, an area I still won't go back to, even visiting my family is a problem. So, that is why I said what I said, some people sometimes do not have the luxury of picking and choosing what they want to do and where, a job is a job when there are bugger all jobs around, I am sure the people who are unfortunate enough to be unemployed at this moment, might see where I am coming from on this.

Marc2b -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/28/2010 10:09:12 PM)
quote: Regarding your first paragraph, it has happened, I know of animal lovers having to work in an abbatoir, because they were the only jobs going in the town, that was mid eighties in Liverpool where there was officially recorded 25% unemployment. The political slogan at the time, was get on yer bike and find work, fine, on my push Iron I used to cycle 15 miles to work every day, for peanut pay, ( which was £20 a week more than the then YOP ( so called youth opportunities programme, basically paying an absolute minimum pay for unemployed youths to sweep the park) scheme, if some remember those), no one had cars. I had a succession of crap jobs I didn't want, but hey, it was a job and we learned to grab what was going, whatever it was, swallow your pride and work if you could find work before I got fed up and joined the mob, which led onto better things, one of them being getting out of the area in which I had lived all my life, an area I still won't go back to, even visiting my family is a problem. So, that is why I said what I said, some people sometimes do not have the luxury of picking and choosing what they want to do and where, a job is a job when there are bugger all jobs around, I am sure the people who are unfortunate enough to be unemployed at this moment, might see where I am coming from on this. You joined the mob? I had no idea. My apologies Don Aneirin if I offended you in any way. You know that you have all my respect, Godfather. [sm=bowdown.gif] Okay, seriously; I've been unemployed and know what it is like when jobs are scarce (although I'll grant I've never had to face twenty-five percent unemployment - holy fucking shit!). But as you youself pointed out, the jobs may have been few and shity, there was still more than one option (this YOP thing, or get on your bike and ride). If the animal lovers could work in a slaughter house, how much an an animal lover could they be? I mean, I could describe myself as an animal lover but I'm not a fanatic - I'd have no problem cutting up cows if it paid the bills. I don't think a true animal rights advocate (e.g. a PETA member) could ever bring themselves to work in a slaughter house - except maybe to make one of those clandestine videos to post on you tube. I'm not saying there has never been a situation where somebody had to say, "it's this or nothing else;" just that it is going to be a relatively small number when compared to the whole of those looking for jobs.

MissCake -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/28/2010 10:15:18 PM)
In the United States, the United Church of Christ has a long tradition of being open and affirming to LGBT members. http://www.ucccoalition.org/programs/ona/

Marc2b -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/28/2010 10:30:05 PM)
quote: In the United States, the United Church of Christ has a long tradition of being open and affirming to LGBT members. http://www.ucccoalition.org/programs/ona/ Which raises a good point. While there are many denominations that are hostile to gay rights, we should not forget that there are many that are not. It's the negative that attracts public attention. The positive tends to go unnoticed.

Aneirin -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/29/2010 4:47:09 AM)
And the church, whatever brand, has homosexual and others in it's own ranks, they might call it a weakness and a sin, but as long as they have representatives of the very people they despise in their own ranks, they have no complaint.

Marc2b -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/29/2010 6:38:12 AM)
quote: And the church, whatever brand, has homosexual and others in it's own ranks, they might call it a weakness and a sin, but as long as they have representatives of the very people they despise in their own ranks, they have no complaint. True, but that's not my point. My point is that many of us tend to equate words like "church" and "religion" with being anti-gay, anti-semite, etc. In truth there are a great many denominations that do no such thing but they don't usually get noticed by the media. Instead it the Fred Phelps' of the world that get the attention and as a result, give a bad name to many good people.

LadyEllen -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/29/2010 7:54:23 AM)
I think our American friends may be missing the point here somewhat in that here the Church Of England is a state organisation, intimately tied in to the whole in a way quite alien to US thinking. As such, like it or not, the Church Of England is governed by the EU Human Rights legislation which forbids discrimination of the kind under discussion. Whilst the UK may choose to exempt certain of the conditions arising under that legislation, it may do so only for reasons of national importance which should be difficult to argue in the case of a state Church which sees 5% attendance at best. Further that we are not talking here about customer facing roles necessarily but the entire swathe of behind the scenes administration and management too. Whilst we do have in law the notion of genuine occupational qualification for recruitment and employment - such that it is possible to discriminate on a number of grounds as to who and who may not be recruited and employed for a role, this is tightly controlled and admissible most normally in cases where, for instance, a certain ethnicity is required (the Indian Restaurant being a case in point) or a certain sex is required (care homes etc). Now there may be a genuine occupational qualification to be applied to some roles which are customer facing but it is difficult to argue that the treatment of a book keeper or a payroll supervisor or pensions administrator or property manager might require a similar approach. And notwithstanding this we have the odd situation of the Church Of England already employing LGB and even T people in what are very much customer facing roles as priests; presumably these people were recruited on their merits regardless of their status, which is the rightful and lawful process. In any case, why on Earth it should be any sort of problem regardless is beyond me - unless someone is flaunting their sexuality openly in the workplace - a disciplinary offence it could easily be argued - as an employee I am there to use my knowledge and skills in the fulfilment of the notified duties, and as such I have to leave not only my sexuality but my religion and politics at the door, adapting instead the moral and ethical approach embodied by the employer, as his agent. And this notwithstanding that the same EU Human Rights legislation provides protections for private and family life which make it potentially unlawful for the employer to enquire in those regards in any case. What we have then is a state organisation which wishes to hold itself as being exempt from the laws of the land, to no particularly genuine end except perhaps to avoid trouble for its adherents in the former Empire, who are under attack from their Muslim neighbours for belonging to a faith which has otherwise adapted to the changing social scene in the home country with regard to LGBT matters and people. In other words, this move by the Church is nothing more than a cave in to its overseas constituents who both represent its loudest voices and a more traditional approach. In short, the Church has moved to curtail the rights of LGBT people in England to satisfy its predominantly African adherents. E

GotSteel -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/29/2010 9:48:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b True, but that's not my point. My point is that many of us tend to equate words like "church" and "religion" with being anti-gay, anti-semite, etc. In truth there are a great many denominations that do no such thing but they don't usually get noticed by the media. Instead it the Fred Phelps' of the world that get the attention and as a result, give a bad name to many good people. There are many thousands of denominations out there and for all I know a majority of them could very well be tolerant. However, the majority of Christians belong to just a few of these denominations and considering which denominations those are I suspect that the stereotype that Christianity in America is anti-gay has a lot more to do with the reality of the situation than anything the Phelps had to say. [image]local://upfiles/566126/6A8EB743F1F84900AE23D56670598CFF.gif[/image]

Marc2b -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/29/2010 1:30:29 PM)
quote: think our American friends may be missing the point here somewhat in that here the Church Of England is a state organisation, intimately tied in to the whole in a way quite alien to US thinking… etc. Well, I can’t speak for every American but I for one am aware that the Church of England is a state organization (that was one of the reasons people left for the new world), and I realize that the same rules do not apply. The question of the CoE’s discrimination is, ultimately a question for you folks over there to decide. But I’m not just looking at this from just a legal standpoint or even a moral one. I like to look at things from multiple perspectives. I am also a firm believer in the Law of Unintended Consequences and am very skeptical of the government’s ability to force different segments of society to like each other. I’m no expert on religion in Britain but my understanding is that the CoE is no longer the exclusive church of the land (I think I heard somewhere that Tony Blair is a Catholic?). Are these other churches part of the state? Do the same government laws/regulations that apply to the CoE apply to them. Perhaps it is time to end the CoE’s special status and send it packing; that is, to end it’s ties to the government? I dunno, just some thoughts.

Marc2b -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/29/2010 1:54:02 PM)
quote: There are many thousands of denominations out there and for all I know a majority of them could very well be tolerant. However, the majority of Christians belong to just a few of these denominations and considering which denominations those are I suspect that the stereotype that Christianity in America is anti-gay has a lot more to do with the reality of the situation than anything the Phelps had to say. Denominations may have been too limiting a word because I was thinking of religion in general. I'm not so sure how accurate that map is, at least as far as this discussion is concerned. It shows my area as being predominately Catholic. It is true that we do have a large (but gradualy dwindling) Catholic population here but within twenty minutes driving time from my home you can find just about any denomination or religion you can imagine, from fundalmentalists who like to shout from the street corners that we are all hell bound sinners to Unitarians, Jews, Muslims, Bhudists and several New Age religions. Even within denominations you can find a lot of variety. Just down the street from where I work is a convent of Nuns and a kinder, sweeter and non judgemental group of women you could never meet. The run a food pantry, clothes closet, and emergency shelter and they would never turn away anybody. In fact, they may have been too kind and non judgemental - they are being investigated by the Vatican for going against church dogma (including, believe it or not, allowing a lesbian couple to have a private room at the emergency shelter when their house burned down). These Nuns have already stated that if the Vatican's investigator rules against them, they may well break away and go independent. Incidently, the fundalmentalist street shouters can only be seen during warm weather. You never see them during the winter. Apparently, saving my soul from eternal damnation in the fires of Hell isn't worth getting a case of the sniffles over.

NorthernGent -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/30/2010 5:07:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/8476862.stm The Equality Bill would prevent churches from discriminating against LGBT candidates for employment other than as ministers/priests, where they already have an exemption. They reason that LGBT lifestyles go against church teaching. Tough. You might have the right to decide whether or not I can join your club, but you should not have the right to decide whether I can do a job based on anything other than my ability. E The Church of England isn't particularly anti-gay etc. No more so than the general public. The issue for the Church is that they need the African sects to retain their influence - and the African sect is anti-gay. When it came down to a choice between acting on their principles and retaining close links with the African sect - the leaders of the Church of England chose power.

NorthernGent -> RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans (1/30/2010 5:15:34 AM)
In addition - I think the Church of England stands up quite well when compared with other churches. It's rooted in the every day world and is short on dogma. There are plenty of openly gay ministers in the Church of England and of course there are those with more conservative views on sexuality (could it be any different within a body consisting of millions of people).

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