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Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/24/2010 11:45:31 AM

LadyEllen

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/8476862.stm

The Equality Bill would prevent churches from discriminating against LGBT candidates for employment other than as ministers/priests, where they already have an exemption.

They reason that LGBT lifestyles go against church teaching.

Tough. You might have the right to decide whether or not I can join your club, but you should not have the right to decide whether I can do a job based on anything other than my ability.

E

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/26/2010 10:58:59 AM

LatteAddict

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One could also argue they are out of step with the wider society in Britain.

quote:

BBC News website

UK more liberal on homosexuality, says survey

Some 36% thought homosexual acts were "always" or "mostly" wrong, down from 62% when the British Social Attitudes survey was first carried out, in 1983.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8479624.stm

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/26/2010 12:22:09 PM

TheHungryTiger

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quote:

Tough. You might have the right to decide whether or not I can join your club, but you should not have the right to decide whether I can do a job based on anything other than my ability.

Just out of curiosity, would you consider the reverse to be true also?

Say there was applying for a job as a bartender at a gay bar, or a lab tech at an AIDS clinic, or whatever LGBT orgnization have you. In the interview it came out that the applicant was a fundamentalist born again christian. Would the LGBT organization have the right to say 'thanks but no thanks' or would the government have to step in and through use of force and intimidation require the LGBT organization to go againt its principals?

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/26/2010 4:09:57 PM

littlewonder

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I personally don't have a problem not hiring someone that is against their ethical/morals values.

Would you really want to work for some place that you felt uncomfortable every single day of your life? I know I wouldn't.

To me when they hire someone against their morals and values and ethical beliefs they are now going against the teachings of their church and when they do that they no longer have any kind of standing in their community.

Why would you even apply for a job at a place that is so not in line with you?

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/26/2010 11:22:45 PM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

Just out of curiosity, would you consider the reverse to be true also?

Say there was applying for a job as a bartender at a gay bar, or a lab tech at an AIDS clinic, or whatever LGBT orgnization have you. In the interview it came out that the applicant was a fundamentalist born again christian. Would the LGBT organization have the right to say 'thanks but no thanks' or would the government have to step in and through use of force and intimidation require the LGBT organization to go againt its principals?

This is an interesting point.

When you hire someone, particularly if they are going to have any interaction with your "customers", in this case the people who attend the church, it does strike me as reasonable that you want to hire people who share the "company vision" so to speak.

Something to chew over mentally. Thanks Tiger. *wanders off to ponder*

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/26/2010 11:23:09 PM >

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 9:06:01 AM

rockspider

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If you read the bible there is no doubt about that homoseksuality is a sin. The church really is sitting with this hot potato where homoseksuality is getting more and more acceptet, but the doctrine says something else. It show really how irelevant religion is in a modern world.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 9:16:44 AM

pahunkboy

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...I don't think this can be forced.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 9:25:25 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

...I don't think this can be forced.

Why not? Equal employment opportunity for women has had to be forced, and for people of different skin color.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 9:34:53 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

...I don't think this can be forced.

Why not? Equal employment opportunity for women has had to be forced, and for people of different skin color.

Yeah, fuck the churches they don't pay taxes now, what do they want, everything? Why should they be "exempt" from all the laws?
I'd be funny as hell to see a really conservative church have to hire a "Liberace type" to,....."play the organ!"

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 9:39:16 AM

Aneirin

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My understanding, the church as a money making business that employs people is subject to employment law in it's entirety, they discriminate against any group, they have broken the law, and a law made in a christian country, by I assume the majority belief ; christians, be they practising or just align with the belief because they have thought no more about it since their school days.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 9:43:30 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Why not? Equal employment opportunity for women has had to be forced, and for people of different skin color.

Hello vincent
I would question the intent of someone whom applied for a position which they knew they either did not believe or support in themselves, in an organisation that they did not support the position of though.

the.dark.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 9:53:35 AM

popeye1250

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Lady E, maybe you should apply to be a coach on one of those church sports teams!
"Oh yeah? Well OUR coach wears high heels and eye shadow!"

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 10:03:18 AM

Aneirin

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Look, as long as someone is able to do the job required of them, what they do in the non work part of their life, is irrelevant, it is not an employer's business. People are paid for the labour they provide, not what they are beyond another member of society. But there seems not to be any provision in law for the fact that an employer fails to employ someone because they feel they are not the person for the job, gut feelings seem not to be taken into account, it must be because of a prejudice or other, so employers might have difficult decisions when faced with a minority group.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 10:16:08 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Look, as long as someone is able to do the job required of them, what they do in the non work part of their life, is irrelevant, it is not an employer's business. People are paid for the labour they provide, not what they are beyond another member of society. But there seems not to be any provision in law for the fact that an employer fails to employ someone because they feel they are not the person for the job, gut feelings seem not to be taken into account, it must be because of a prejudice or other, so employers might have difficult decisions when faced with a minority group.

Oh that is complete bullshit.
If you take on a job that your lifestyle doesn't support, then you have to realise that you will come under scrutiny. You don't like it then tough, deal with it. I don't support bigotry, but I don't support people whom cannot follow their employers rules either or just went with the flow and I wouldn't admire someone whom took on a position where they knew that their beliefs did not adhere to their chosen employment. I don't dig it for politians and their aids. I wouldn't for clergy or their employees either.

the.dark.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 12:09:36 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Say there was applying for a job as a bartender at a gay bar...

"Hi there! I'm Fred Phelps. I understand you have a posistion open for bartender? You filthy, Hell bound, uncle humpers don't mind my God Hates Fags, t-shirt, do you?"

Seriously, setting aside the argument of why somebody would want to work for an orginization/business that opposes their own beliefs/lifestyle, there are limits to how much a government can (or should) try to force people who don't get along - to get along. Laws against discrimination besed upon race, gender or sexual orientation are one thing - all of us are of some race, gender and sexual orientation - but belief systems (and fashion choices) are another matter. Particularly if those beliefs can cause conflict with other employees or the employer.

Say a gay person gets a job at an evangical church.  When the Minster ask them to proof read his "why homosexuality is a sin" sermon, can the gay employee claim harrasment? If an Evangical got a job at a gay bar and a patron start hitting on him - can he also claim harrasment? In either case is it fair to the employer to be forced to risk such lawsuits? Some people just don't belong together and we as a society should try to force the issue.

Besides, how many jobs are we talking about here? I doubt we will see thousands of gay people starving in the streets just because a few church jobs are closed to them.


< Message edited by Marc2b -- 1/27/2010 12:11:14 PM >

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 2:38:48 PM

pahunkboy

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The very essence of religion is a sort of belief system... when we erase that then .... I just dont think it can be forced.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 3:15:03 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The very essence of religion is a sort of belief system... when we erase that then .... I just dont think it can be forced.

Dearest PA
I agree in essence. I would alter 'belief' to 'faith' though.

the.dark.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 3:37:57 PM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The very essence of religion is a sort of belief system... when we erase that then .... I just dont think it can be forced.

Dearest PA
I agree in essence. I would alter 'belief' to 'faith' though.

the.dark.

But why make everyone suffer? Some types simply do not get along with other types. It isn't pleasant.... I once got a job because I had gone to the co-workers church- when I stopped- so did my job. It doesn't matter the mechanics of it- the point is- the pressure they put on me- and the outcome was what they wanted.

I don't see a point in forcing for religion.

The pressure they can put on someone is much- so I for one would prefer not to go thru that.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 5:01:04 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Look, as long as someone is able to do the job required of them, what they do in the non work part of their life, is irrelevant, it is not an employer's business. People are paid for the labour they provide, not what they are beyond another member of society. But there seems not to be any provision in law for the fact that an employer fails to employ someone because they feel they are not the person for the job, gut feelings seem not to be taken into account, it must be because of a prejudice or other, so employers might have difficult decisions when faced with a minority group.

Oh that is complete bullshit.
If you take on a job that your lifestyle doesn't support, then you have to realise that you will come under scrutiny. You don't like it then tough, deal with it. I don't support bigotry, but I don't support people whom cannot follow their employers rules either or just went with the flow and I wouldn't admire someone whom took on a position where they knew that their beliefs did not adhere to their chosen employment. I don't dig it for politians and their aids. I wouldn't for clergy or their employees either.

the.dark.

Not everyone has the luxury of finding work that suits them and their lifestyle, often, in fact, very often in places where work is scarce, one has to take what is on offer, usually the highest paid work is the target, if not that, anything that pays a a wage that enables a person to do better than welfare. Just do the job that is required of them, take home the pay and live. Sometimes despite what our personal belief is, we just have to swallow it, if we want to move forward.

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RE: Church still doesnt like gays and trans - 1/27/2010 5:57:06 PM

stella41b

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I think some people are missing the wider issue here.. specifically the argument that 'LGBT lifestyles go against church teaching.'

And what is that church teaching? That you are a decent person if you are a heterosexual but you aren't if you're not.

Let us not forget that people do go to church, people do listen to the church's teaching, and so the bigotry and persecution finds its platform in the pulpit and opinions are formed.

Back in 2005 in Poland I wasn't working for the Church but I was working in a theatre. I made my decision to come out publicly not just in support of the Polish LGBT community, but also for my own personal moral reasons - I decided to be myself in all areas of my life and not to continue pretending to be someone who I wasn't. Had I have been in another country than Poland it might have worked out differently, but it worked out the way it did exactly because I was in Poland, and because the people I was working with also went to church.

The fact that I'm transgendered isn't something I involve in my artistic work, it's just who I am. It doesn't affect my ability to either write or direct, but still I had my contract terminated for 'failure to promote positive, healthy values in the community.' Poland today still remains a country where if you are not white, Polish and heterosexual you face almost certain social ostracization.

Even here in the UK not being heterosexual can make life difficult.

The BNP and National Front are political parties which are subject to the law, and I don't see why the church or any religious body for that matter be treated as being above the law.

I just think it's ironic that we can send the leader of a mosque to prison for inciting hatred but when the priest or vicar is free to incite bigotry and prejudice (which incites hatred) most people find that perfectly acceptable.

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