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RE: Evolution or Devolution ? - 1/26/2010 11:45:58 PM   
Termyn8or


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jlf, I can't argue against that statement. But does that possibly infer that devolution and evolution are one and the same ? The rise and fall are both parts of the life cycle of our species, or perhaps a great portion of it ?

History does tend to support that conclusion huh ?

T

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RE: Evolution or Devolution ? - 1/27/2010 6:21:35 AM   
Moonhead


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Well the notion that evolution is a smooth upwards progression producing steadily better creatures went out a long time ago, didn't it?

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RE: Evolution or Devolution ? - 1/27/2010 6:58:10 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Considering two thirds of the human population fall into the category of "Terminally Stupid," it would seem that natural selection has been taken out of human evolution.

Humans will continue to get more stupid and eventually will eliminate most of the life on the planet through pollution, expansion and destruction of the ecosphere.


Yours is a political opinion not a biological one obviously, but not to say I disagree with you.

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RE: Evolution or Devolution ? - 1/27/2010 7:20:28 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Well the notion that evolution is a smooth upwards progression producing steadily better creatures went out a long time ago, didn't it?


Consider that Natural Selection and Sexual Selection requires a great variety in the gene pool. In addition Darwin's Evolution also requires some numbers of the variance with breeding potential to be somehow isolated with the inherited variance that allows them to survive in the new environment whereas the main population would not.

Our species has pretty much filled every niche and cranny of the planet. Unless we have among us humans who have developed blowholes (well hidden of course) like whales and have returned to the sea as whale ancestors did, chances of physical isolation seem remote unless (and this is quite possible) a great catastrophe occurs to change Earth's ecosystem and wipes out the majority of our species except those adapted to survive the new environment.

So, for the moment at least, I think human evolution into a seperate and distinct species is on hold. Just my guess. With this caveat, there are some isolated groups here and there that do not interbreed with the main group, but I would not bet that their genes and mutations would lead to a distinct new species without catastrophe, although it may be possible. Hedging my bet here.

The old definition of "species" was the inability to breed progeny with another species. With the new discoveries in species genomes I am no longer convinced that is the proper definition. But, I don't know.

Oh, and to answer your question more directly, it is quite well considered that parasites like the tapeworm who makes a host of the human digestive system "devolved" from free-living ancestors. An example of variation meets new environment.

Welcome any informed replies pro or con.

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RE: Evolution or Devolution ? - 1/27/2010 7:30:42 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Considering two thirds of the human population fall into the category of "Terminally Stupid," it would seem that natural selection has been taken out of human evolution.

Humans will continue to get more stupid and eventually will eliminate most of the life on the planet through pollution, expansion and destruction of the ecosphere.


Yours is a political opinion not a biological one obviously, but not to say I disagree with you.



Actually, I would say it is a biological one.

Consider that the human species changes the habitat it occupies to suit itself without regardless of impact, like a cancer. Now at one point, humans lived in harmony with the host organism, granted that time was at the dawn of modern humans, while they were still hunter gatherers.

Either the human species mutated as it advanced into a cancer like organism, OR we devolved into a mindless species that consumes more in the way of resources, thus impacting the planet in a non-beneficial way.

The apparent stupidity of the race has become evident in how it moves into the habitats of other species. By expanding without regard, the human species invades the habitat of animals that are harmful to humans. A good example of this are suburban developments in bear and cougar habitats. Humans have to destroy the animals in order to be safe, or, become part of the food chain. Personally, I think if someone is stupid enough to build a home in such an area, the carnivores of that area have the right to eat the humans without reprisal.

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RE: Evolution or Devolution ? - 1/27/2010 9:20:15 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Considering two thirds of the human population fall into the category of "Terminally Stupid," it would seem that natural selection has been taken out of human evolution.

Humans will continue to get more stupid and eventually will eliminate most of the life on the planet through pollution, expansion and destruction of the ecosphere.


Yours is a political opinion not a biological one obviously, but not to say I disagree with you.



Actually, I would say it is a biological one.

Consider that the human species changes the habitat it occupies to suit itself without regardless of impact, like a cancer. Now at one point, humans lived in harmony with the host organism, granted that time was at the dawn of modern humans, while they were still hunter gatherers.

Either the human species mutated as it advanced into a cancer like organism, OR we devolved into a mindless species that consumes more in the way of resources, thus impacting the planet in a non-beneficial way.

The apparent stupidity of the race has become evident in how it moves into the habitats of other species. By expanding without regard, the human species invades the habitat of animals that are harmful to humans. A good example of this are suburban developments in bear and cougar habitats. Humans have to destroy the animals in order to be safe, or, become part of the food chain. Personally, I think if someone is stupid enough to build a home in such an area, the carnivores of that area have the right to eat the humans without reprisal.


While I agree with much of what you say about the havoc we have wrought as a species I do not see that it means we have any genetic differences with those ancestors as far as intelligence, personal and social needs, and ability to use tools. I have never encountered any suggestion that genetic changes lead to the development of agricultural communities which lead to industrialization, etc. More likely in my mind population growth, clashes between tribes over territory, and the warming of the climate lead to the first agricultural settlements. Thereafter, came a social evolution: hierarchy of gods, rulers and priests, peasants and slave with specialization of labor and the necessity of keeping records lead to the change from pictures painted inside caves to accounts kept on stone tablets.

I suspect a hunter/gatherer child of our species raised from dependent infancy in our milieu would grow to adulthood with no noticeable differences than any other contemporary adult. Don't you think that the case? Or do you believe in the nobel innocence and purity of the savage?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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