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RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 7:29:50 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		Sod off, mate.  I spent most of my life in California.  Where the jobs are concentrated on earthquake faults and in high-fire zones.

My industry's concentrated in CA and the Northeast, and the opportunities are much more numerous in CA.

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 7:44:37 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Sod off, mate.  I spent most of my life in California.  Where the jobs are concentrated on earthquake faults and in high-fire zones.

My industry's concentrated in CA and the Northeast, and the opportunities are much more numerous in CA.


How do you feel about those folks that continue to keep rebuilding their homes on the slopes along PCH? You know the ones that get hit with the mudslides and fall down the cliffs?

The risk vs reward thing for the insurance companies out there may or may not have reached the breaking point yet. Between building codes and numbers of insured perhaps the premiums out in California outweigh the costs of claims. I have no clue as I haven't seen a chart. The damage done by hurricanes over and over and over again seems to be outweighing the premiums collected.

Should insurance companies be forced to cover folks in such zones?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 9:36:41 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		I have a complicated view of this.  For instance, I'd ban shake roofs and enforce brush clearing in fire zones (and many municipalities already do.)  Newer building codes dictate structural designs for areas prone to earthquakes.

I'd not cover homes in areas like the Devil's Slide, or those who build directly on the beach (Rincon, Summerland for example in Santa Barbara County).  Or I'd cover you once but not again.

I wouldn't cover any home on a barrier island.  For other high risk homes (anywhere in the US) I'd give you one or two, but not more.  I'd mandate building standards that would minimize damage (anywhere from floods to earthquakes).

Frankly, I don't know how you could set standards anywhere in tornado alley.  Say you banned mobile homes in tornado zones.  Where would people live?  Would you subsidize stick-built or brick structures?

You'd have to depopulate the entire state of FL to get rid of the massive hurricane risk, maybe even the entire Gulf coast.

All these things would make me an evil socialist, no doubt.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 9:45:53 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		So thornhappy, what you are saying is that you would try to reach a reasonable compromise between the public benefit of everyone being covered by insurance, and the stability and economic benefits it would bring, and people's individual right to live where they wish?
You would establish general rules which allowed building, but regulated rates, so as to discourage extremely rash risk taking, while preserving the right to enjoy private property?

Hmm....just crazy enough to work.

(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 10:25:28 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		This turn of this thread has brought up something more. I am sure nobody will respond to me but I would like to add this anyway.

The whole idea of insurance, and in some aspectects government brings up a certain point, a very basic point that has been the crux of many of society's problems probably from the dawn of civilization. Within each of us, as well as the whole human race there is a battle, constantly raging right under our noses. It took me decades to realize that sociey's problems are ndivivual in a way, and that individual probelms are society's in a way. It matters not the cause for some aspects of the conversation, however is quite profound.

Innate in each and every one of us there is a battle between collectivism and individualism. Society at large simply reflects that trait. Doubt ? Think about it, there are times when you want to be alone, and there are times you desire the company of others. One or the other or both, or do you keep changing your mind ? Simple matter to understand really, but to translate that into a template for the judgement of others' wishes, it should be taken into consideration.

So the main struggle here is just what is to be collectivized and what is not. Nobody wants to see hmeless people because of a flood. But it happens. Just how much responsibility do others' bear due to that ? That is the prime debate resolution. Should we say "We'll rebuild you once but not there" ?. Or should we create another money pit like the wars and shit ? Or should we just tell them to fuck off ?

Insurance is, in a way, institutionalized charity. However no charity can give out more than it takes in. This is reality. And if you don't look out for number one, who is to look out for number two ?

The class war of which I speak from time to time has nothing to do with this. The question is, am I my brother's keeper ? How much responsibility do I presonally have to people who insist on living n high risk places. Should I pay higher rates because of it ? Or shoud they ? Or should nobody and now the insurance companies all go under.

It is the same way with everything. Even politics. You now why bipartisan issues will never be resolved ? Because they can't even really on which points they actually disagree, even with their limited power of influence. Puts on a good show though. One can say the liberals are more for the colective while conservatives are more for the individual, but we know that isn't true. That is part of the class war actually and not within the scope of thuis text.

Would you insure Evil Knevil, or give a whole life policy to Andre' The Giant ? How about life insurance for the guys on "The Deadliest Catch" ? You you like to insure the future of the US currency by having alot of it, or would you choose not to by diversifying ?

And this is where things change. With individualism, people are solely responsible for their own actions, no insurance. Would you rebuild in a flood zone with no insurance ?

With insurance the loss is spread among all, and is collectivism and therefore socialism. Is that what you want ?

Before you say yes, consider this, if I insure your health, I have the right to control you in certain ways. If I insure your house I have a right to reaquire that wiring is up to snuff and the heating is safe. If I insure your car I have the right to require you to wear seat belts. If I insure your anything, I have the right to make certain requirements, the violation of which is considered abuse or stupidity, and I won't insure against stupidity.

That gives me control over you. And if I insure you in a flood zone and have to pay off once, you will be moving, or not having insurance from my company.

So collectivism is at bet voluntary and cooperative. It is not at it's best, to say the least.

T

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 10:43:20 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Unless you can point me to an actuarial table that shows that the increase was not mathematically correct, then i have to say "So what". They can choose to insure or not, they seem to be giving plenty of notice so that folks can find coverage with another company.

The difference in Katrina that had most people scratching their heads was the difference between storm damage and flooding. It's in your policy too it's in every home owner's policy in the country. Regular Home Owners policies cover storm damage, but they do not cover damage from rising water/ flooding. Tht is why the NFIP National Flood Insurance Program was created. Because flood damage simply is not predictable enough for anyone to make any money.

If Florida believes they can subsidize an insurance program for their citizens, then they are hugely mistaken and will go the way of California as far as being in any real sense of the word Bankrupt. Normal insurance companies subsidize their losses in high risk areas by collecting enough premiums in low risk areas to make the math work out. Florida simply doesn't have enough areas with low risk to make the math work out.



Citizens Insurance is not something new, it was created in 2002, and it is hardly a subsidy.  It is an insurance of last resort which is, as I said before, by law higher priced than private insurance.

As far as your claim about flood insurance you are simply wrong.  The problem is most standard policies do not include it and most people do not think to ask, they assume it is included.  I have flood insurance on my AllState policy that was very inexpensive and covers any type of flood damage including storms, sewer backup, and even water damage from plumbing defects.

The reason the NFIP was created is exactly why Citizens was created.  Private insurers pulled out of high risk areas.  In the case of NFIP those were properties located in flood plains.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 2/5/2010 10:56:48 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 11:27:53 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

They're even better off moving to a part of the country that doesn't get leveled by hurricanes several times a year. If enough people move away because they decide they can't afford to live there, hurricanes won't be so expensive, insurance companies won't be paying out several billion dollars a year in claims, and rates may drop. Or, people can choose to continue living in the path of the hurricanes, and pay whatever they need to pay to insure their homes. I'm no fan of the insurance companies, but this looks to me like a pretty good example of the free market working exactly the way it's supposed to work.

People can't have it both ways. If you live in the middle of the highway, you're going to get run over every now and then.  If you don't want to pay the price of getting run over, move away from the highway. 


fuck... now there's a commodity often missing from these discussions - reason.

Well said.

_____________________________


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(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 11:29:19 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You mean that a government run insurance program replacing an evil, profit driven, private sector company isn't a great thing? You must not be considering the efficiencies that public employees and bureaucracy bring to the table!


Meaning to imply that private employees and bureaucracies are efficient?

If so let me tell you a long story about my recent dealings with Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft about my computer problems.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 11:32:46 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You mean that a government run insurance program replacing an evil, profit driven, private sector company isn't a great thing? You must not be considering the efficiencies that public employees and bureaucracy bring to the table!


Meaning to imply that private employees and bureaucracies are efficient?

If so let me tell you a long story about my recent dealings with Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft about my computer problems.



If it's the black screen problem, fork over the 90 bucks to get it fixed or take it apart and reflow the graphics chip.

HP may eventually do something about it, but it'll be a while. Besides, those private employees are all in china.

_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 11:48:06 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

If it's the black screen problem, fork over the 90 bucks to get it fixed or take it apart and reflow the graphics chip.

HP may eventually do something about it, but it'll be a while. Besides, those private employees are all in china.


If I had any idea how to do that I wouldn't have spent $49.95 for customer service and another $28 dollars for a recovery disc that didn't work.  Now they want me to send it in for a $399 overhaul.  How they arrived at that number without even looking at it I don't know.  So basically what they are telling me is a 2 year-old laptop might as well be junked because the cost to repair it is nearly the cost to buy a new one.

And no the employees were definitely in India.  I'm not sure which pisses me off more, the computer problems or the outsourcing that has me talking to someone who I can barely understand and they can barely understand me.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 2/5/2010 11:53:45 PM >

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/5/2010 11:56:55 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You mean that a government run insurance program replacing an evil, profit driven, private sector company isn't a great thing? You must not be considering the efficiencies that public employees and bureaucracy bring to the table!


Meaning to imply that private employees and bureaucracies are efficient?

If so let me tell you a long story about my recent dealings with Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft about my computer problems.



If it's the black screen problem, fork over the 90 bucks to get it fixed or take it apart and reflow the graphics chip.

HP may eventually do something about it, but it'll be a while. Besides, those private employees are all in china.


If I had any idea how to do that I wouldn't have spent $49.95 for customer service and another $28 dollars for a recovery disc that didn't work.  Now they want me to send it in for a $399 overhaul.  How they arrived at that number without even looking at it I don't know.  So basically what they are telling me is a 2 year-old laptop might as well be junked because the cost to repair it is nearly the cost to buy a new one.

And no the employees were definitely in India.  I'm not sure which pisses me off more, the computer problems or the outsourcing that has me talking to someone who I can barely understand and they can barely understand me. 



399 will get you another motherboard, which can have exactly the same problem. The people you're talking to are in india, but odds are the thing was made in china. I don't know if I'll end up violating the tos by telling you who fixed mine for that price, but shoot me an email and I'll pass along the info if you want it.

_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/6/2010 2:15:23 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		BIGOT !

A poor Indianese guy has less right to the American drean than you ? So what if he forgot to move here. Why can't we be more tolerant ? Let them take it all, because we got plenty. This is the land of milk and honey and we owe the world for that.

T

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/8/2010 7:58:29 AM   
cuckyman


Posts: 471
Joined: 3/25/2009
Status: offline 		If you don't live in Florida, you don't know what is happening in Florida....most of the insurance companies have pulled out of insuring property in Florida after 05 and the state insurance pool is broke...if you live in a flood plain its 'self insure' or not...period.... people that live on waterfront property can afford to take the risk, will continue to live there....if not, sell and move...simple..... we all knew it was coming and if you live on a more safe area...insurance is available to all....only more expensive.... California is next..... you cannot force insurance companies to take massive losses, despite your pretzel democrat logic..... it would simply be best if you resisted the urge to comment on anything....I have read your lame assertions and none are worhty of consideration.... like most leftwingers..... waaaaayyyy out of touch with reality..... but soon to be acquainted with a landslide of oposition to your way of thinking (if that is really what you call it)....

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/8/2010 8:10:15 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You mean that a government run insurance program replacing an evil, profit driven, private sector company isn't a great thing? You must not be considering the efficiencies that public employees and bureaucracy bring to the table!


Meaning to imply that private employees and bureaucracies are efficient?

If so let me tell you a long story about my recent dealings with Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft about my computer problems.
So...You're the guy that got 'sold' on buying a 'quality HP'!? HP makes decent printers, but their PC's best serve as land fill.

HP huh- and you expected different? How's that 'bargain' working for you? Tastes like government cheese doesn't it? You get what you pay for and suffer the consequences - Unless of course you are have the safety net of government bail outs.

Your problem and the abuses of computer advertising and differential quality versus pricing point to how the citizens of the US are too stupid to make a good decision; pointing to another that should be taken from them. Nationalizing the computer industry and breaking up Microsoft would be the first step to protect you, and others similarly inclined to make bad personal decisions.

The purpose of government is to protect you from poor choices and the subsequent consequences - right?



(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/10/2010 5:47:14 AM   
SeekingAZ


Posts: 82
Joined: 9/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckyman

If you don't live in Florida, you don't know what is happening in Florida....most of the insurance companies have pulled out of insuring property in Florida after 05 and the state insurance pool is broke...if you live in a flood plain its 'self insure' or not...period.... people that live on waterfront property can afford to take the risk, will continue to live there....if not, sell and move...simple..... we all knew it was coming and if you live on a more safe area...insurance is available to all....only more expensive.... California is next..... you cannot force insurance companies to take massive losses, despite your pretzel democrat logic..... it would simply be best if you resisted the urge to comment on anything....I have read your lame assertions and none are worhty of consideration.... like most leftwingers..... waaaaayyyy out of touch with reality..... but soon to be acquainted with a landslide of oposition to your way of thinking (if that is really what you call it)....


The point everyone seems to be missing is there's no insurance because the government will not allow the rate increase the insurance company wants. Why the hell a government has a right to set the price of a product is beyond me. Without those controls there would be insurance available for any home in Florida. Now you may not like the price, but it's your choice to pay it, move, or go without (if you own the home free and clear). At an appropriate premium any house is insurable.

The state setting rate controls on insurance products makes the policy of forcing the state issued last resort insurance to be at the same or higher premium as private companies a complete joke. The state will be issuing policies for those that lose their insurance now at a below market rate at taxpayer's expense. If the rate they are selling insurance at wasn't below market rate, the private insurance companies would be issuing insurance at those rates instead of leaving the market.

The same thing will happen with cost controls under the proposed health care plans. Doctors will leave the profession in droves once their rates are government controlled. This will generate scarcity even without the action of the health review boards and other varied and evil fuckery contained in the bills.

(in reply to cuckyman)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/10/2010 6:33:12 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Hold it folks- Hunky is right.  Insurance companies are regulated because people make long term financial decisions based on their operations.  When you purchase a house, you look at the cost of the mortgage, taxes, utilities, and insurance among other things like location, location, location.

Allstate's demand for more money should mean that either the risk of insuring those houses has risen dramatically in a year, or it was incorrectly priced to begin with.  In terms of global climate change there's modeling that hurricanes in the Atlantic will be fewer in number but stronger in strength- but this is just a guess.  There's nothing in the scientific literature that suggests that Florida is due for 50% more severe hurricanes this year than last.  So their rate increase isn't based on a change in risk from one year to the next.

Was their pricing in past years all that flawed?  If so, why not start raising the rates more gradually?  This would have the effect of depressing property prices and allow more rational home buying decisions.  It would also reduce their profits in all likelihood, which is probably why they didn't do it.  You make more money on a $1500 premium on a $400k home, versus a $1000 premium on a $150k home.

That the insurance company chose not to do so indicates that in past years, they were happy enough getting their premiums regardless of the actual risk involved, and allowing the financial markets to generate profits for them.  But what this means is that these companies are not being run competently- since their function is to evaluate the cost of risk!  If they can't do that- what do you need them for?  This has all the same hallmarks of banks that are too big to fail- taking financial risks with what became taxpayer money.  It also has the same effect on the poor homeowner- large financial institutions have manipulated the housing market to generate profits- but now that there's a recession, the housing costs are going back to more reasonable values.

Should the insurance company be allowed to do this?  Not in my book.  Since the company has not priced risk accurately- they've taken money and resources away from a company that could.  I'm damned if I see why Allstate should stay in business.  At the end of the day- this is a similar failure as our banking institutions.  There was a reason that insurance companies were regulated- and it was so this kind of nonsense doesn't happen.  When you have government that doesn't want to do its regulatory job- this is what happens.


Sam

(in reply to SeekingAZ)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/10/2010 8:10:54 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingAZ

The point everyone seems to be missing is there's no insurance because the government will not allow the rate increase the insurance company wants. Why the hell a government has a right to set the price of a product is beyond me. Without those controls there would be insurance available for any home in Florida. Now you may not like the price, but it's your choice to pay it, move, or go without (if you own the home free and clear). At an appropriate premium any house is insurable.



Do you realize that the majority of the population live on or near the coasts in Florida?

The interior, other than Orlando is mainly rural and agricultural.

The insurance has always been extremely high if you are within 30 miles of the water.  When I say extremely high I mean many people pay nearly as much in insurance as they do for their mortgage.

Now State Farm wants a nearly 50% increase?  Which if granted would be followed by similar requests from every other insurer.

And the timing is interesting as well, the 2004 and 2005 hurricane seasons were bad, but the last four years have been quiet.  So why do you think they are requesting such a large increase now after already being granted a 15% increase?  My guess is losses on the investments they made with the premiums they collected.

As far as your other points:

History of Insurance - Financial Web

Insurance is, in actuality, a social vehicle for spreading the risk of financial loss among a large group of people, thus making a loss manageable for any one person of that group.


Considering that the entire idea is spreading the risk we have already allowed insurers in many different areas, from home to health to auto, to increase rates on higher risk customers.  Which really is antithetical to the whole concept as it was originally envisaged.

Now they want exorbitant rate increases under threat of pulling out of certain areas?  Let's make no mistake about it, State Farm is highly profitable.  The only thing they are doing is trying to unfairly maximize profits by focusing on the Florida market as if State Farm of Florida was a separate entity from the rest of the company.

Let's also not confuse insurance with other products that people can do without.  Even if your house is free and clear you have a large investment tied up there. 

 




(in reply to SeekingAZ)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/10/2010 8:18:38 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

So...You're the guy that got 'sold' on buying a 'quality HP'!? HP makes decent printers, but their PC's best serve as land fill.

HP huh- and you expected different? How's that 'bargain' working for you? Tastes like government cheese doesn't it? You get what you pay for and suffer the consequences - Unless of course you are have the safety net of government bail outs.

Your problem and the abuses of computer advertising and differential quality versus pricing point to how the citizens of the US are too stupid to make a good decision; pointing to another that should be taken from them. Nationalizing the computer industry and breaking up Microsoft would be the first step to protect you, and others similarly inclined to make bad personal decisions.

The purpose of government is to protect you from poor choices and the subsequent consequences - right?



Well, thank you Merc.

I had no idea your expertise extended into so many different areas.

The next time I buy a computer I'll be sure to call you for advice.

I could use a little help today though.

I'm going underwear shopping later and I'm torn between Fruit of the Loom, Hanes, and Calvin Klein.

Any recommendations?







< Message edited by rulemylife -- 2/10/2010 8:23:32 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/10/2010 10:16:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I'm going underwear shopping later and I'm torn between Fruit of the Loom, Hanes, and Calvin Klein.
Any recommendations?


Wow - you've abdicated that much of decision process? I admire your commitment to letting others make decisions for you! You are in lock step with our President! Good for you!

Based upon prior positions, I think your first call should be to the US Department of Underwear. I think it is one of the many new bureaucracies buried in President's budget proposal getting $2 Billion in stimulus tax money.

However, hang on - I think next week the Administration plans to announce a new "Cash For Chonies" program. You'll be able to turn in your old stained pair and get a tax credit. Meanwhile my suggestion would be - go 'commando'!

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: State Farm Insurance Cancels Thousands of Florida P... - 2/10/2010 10:48:24 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Seems to me that if someone can afford a multi-million dollar home on a barrier island, and all of it's maintenance and upkeep, not to mention all of their vehicles, boats, etc., maybe they could also afford some kind of a savings/escrow account to insure themselves against the inevitable, rather than depending on insurance corporations to take care of it for them?

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 40
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