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Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 8:58:29 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Morning all,

I have spent the last couple of days trying to get caught up with the various appearances by President Obama since the State of the Union. I was hoping that the pledges of open, transparent and reaching across the aisle were more than just hot air. It's still too early to make a call on any of those. During the reading of the transcripts I came across something that almost floored me, especially in light of all the cries about misinformation. Without further delay, from his retreat with the Repubs Jan. 29, 2010.

quote:

Jan 29 transcript
For example -- for example, you know, we said from the start that -- that it was going to be important for us to be consistent in saying to people if you can have your -- if you want to keep the health insurance you've got, you can keep it; that you're not going to have anybody getting in between you and your doctor in your decisionmaking. And I think that some of the provisions that got snuck in might have violated that pledge.




So the President himself admits that the bill had stuff snuck in that would have prevented folks from keeping the insurance and or doctor of their own choice, and it goes unmentioned? If this isn't enough reason to require that all bills be debated in the open and posted with plenty of time to read them before a vote, I don't know what is. Did the media report on this anywhere?

What is your opinion on the matter?

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 9:05:51 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Thadius.

From the start, the premise was no one would lose health insurance they already had and liked. In theory, as expanding the private market was the Republican's approach in the 90s, that would be more palatable in the face of readily predicted attacks of "socialism."

Probably a mistake. First, a single payer plan would work better, and a number of Democrats want it, and promised their voters they wouldn't vote for anything without a public option. Trouble is, others oppose it.

So from the start, a knot to be worked out. Once you start logrolling to gain consensus, the original plan is distorted--not just this bill, but most bills.

I think you're making much of little. After all, the President himself is commenting on it.

Not sure it matters. I hope he can save health care, but I can't imagine how. It's dead, until the status quo finally crushes us with spiraling costs and more dropped coverage.

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 9:20:33 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Tim,

I agree the flaming arrows from both sides of the aisle made this a fucking mess from the start. I also agree that something needs to be done, even if it is to fix the Medicare solvency issues.

That being said, the part that bothers me most in this admission is that he obviously knew (or learned) that the pledge of not interfering with current coverage or choice of doctor had become false. The question is, at what point did that pledge become false and when did he or others in the leadership become aware it was no longer true. Which further raises the question, why act as if it was still true until their hand was forced by the election in MA?

I think I have been pretty fair and open about giving the current administration a chance to accomplish their agenda (whether I agree with it or not). Perhaps, it is just the accumulation of current admissions, tactics, and realizations; I am slowly losing any confidence that I did have in this administration.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 9:27:52 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I understand what you're saying, Thadius.

I'm just not alarmed that a President's initial vision got altered along the way. When does that NOT happen? I wasn't expecting a sudden press conference when various provisions were added.

People have got to get realistic. For example, rationing health care--we ration it now. We always have. But I don't see anything in that statement that says what you said, that I can't choose my doctor.

Again, though, it's a post mortem. And this is an election year. If this is an issue, you're going to be very, very troubled for the next eight months!

Live well,

Tim

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 9:46:04 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		My friend,

As I stated I think it's dead as well, but the President, Speaker of the House, and Senate Majority leader seem to have a different opinion...

USA Today reports:
quote:

The proposal for fiscal year 2011 includes a "reserve fund for health care reform" totaling $634 billion -- a "down payment," as the administration also puts it.

and:
quote:

On this Super Bowl week, Obama employed a huddle of football analogies to describe the current standing of health care.

"We're essentially on the 5-yard line," Obama said. "So we've had to go into overtime, but we are now in the red zone, that's exactly right. We're in the red zone. We've got to punch it through."


Reports suggest that they are still meeting in backrooms to figure out the best strategy for getting it passed. Who knows what abomination of the original concept will come out of those conference rooms. More talks of better deals for unions... this issue may just be undead. Time to get out the silver bullets and stakes...

Continue to live well.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 9:50:57 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Honestly, I think it's talk.

They're too far down this road to drop it, especially with elections coming. And sure, they want to save it or change it to work if they can. But I don't think they've any idea at all how to do that (and I don't think anyone else does either).

I think they're doing what they can and hoping something occurs to them along the way or that conditions change.

Set it up for the next round.

We'll see. For the same political reasons, it will be opposed, whatever it is.

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 10:16:51 AM   
twistedreality


Posts: 64
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		The problem with the health care bill is that no one has defined what the "health care crisis" is and that majority of the public is not fully aware of all that is involved with the health care issue. You can not apply simple answers to complex problems.

I have seen it alluded to and stated several times in this thread; "the spiraling cost of insurance".  Is the answer to that really creating a buracracy and putting the government in charge? Is there one program that the government runs well or efficiently? Have you considered the fact that if you have insurance, the insurance pays a much higher bill for medical treatment, than do other customers? This is our health plan. Those without insurance get treatment and the insured's pay for that in their premiums. Did you know there are health insurance companies that are not-for-profit? So, what is the real cause of the spiraling health care costs? Does it make sense to totally revamp a system that works (85% of the public has health insurance)? Some of those without insurance don't need it. Some of those without insurance are parasites on the system. Do you think all the added pork is really going to bring down prices?

Is it that the crisis is catastrophic illness? Well, in that case, the best answer is to have a nationalized catastrophic health plan. This is what is done with floods, earthquakes and hurricanes.

When they tell me what the "crisis" is. Then I may support some fixes. But, I will not support a system; which like welfare; creates a mindset that the government should take you from the cradle to the grave. That is not what this country is about. Our system is what has given us the highest standard of living on the earth. It's not a perfect system, but it is still the best in the world. The bottom line is dont accept what they tell you. Do some research. Learn the facts.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 10:19:26 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		I'm beginning to have second thoughts about healthcare being reformed.  Granted, we're all in a ton of shit if we keep the status quo as an accepted way to go.  As far as not seeing a Dr I've been seeing for years, then suddenly will be told I cannot see him anymore, I have to look at that statement skeptically.  There are a dozen and a half ways to pick which insurance is taken by which doctors and people often pick the insurance that their doctors do take.  (At least I know thats the way my husband decided who his insurance was with so he could keep his oncologists, pulmonolgists, etc, etc).  I think if you're not interested in finding a way to benefit yourself, then you're at the mercy of all the lunacy being spread around these days.  What I am learning is this.....whether a republican OR democrat says something, it is usually being said to sway a matter towards their way of thinking.  Which brings you back to thinking for yourself, making your decisions for yourself, and deciding whats right for yourself.  If you need someone to tell you those things then yes.....you're in trouble.

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For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 10:21:46 AM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 10:23:59 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		What facts?

You haven't stated any relevant to the issue---just a string of rhetorical questions and a position staking out your attitude about this.

And you haven't done that because you're pretending everything is fine. Yet costs are spiraling, far faster than inflation. You know what you don't want to do. But you've no solution.

(in reply to twistedreality)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 10:24:59 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic





hehehe

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 10:46:01 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
quote:

On this Super Bowl week, Obama employed a huddle of football analogies to describe the current standing of health care.

"We're essentially on the 5-yard line," Obama said. "So we've had to go into overtime, but we are now in the red zone, that's exactly right. We're in the red zone. We've got to punch it through."


Reports suggest that they are still meeting in backrooms to figure out the best strategy for getting it passed. Who knows what abomination of the original concept will come out of those conference rooms. More talks of better deals for unions... this issue may just be undead. Time to get out the silver bullets and stakes...

Continue to live well.


The problem with President Favre's metaphor is that while he may, indeed, have gotten it into the red zone, he just fumbled the ball to the other team, and they're already taking it in the other direction.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 11:40:57 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality
Is there one program that the government runs well or efficiently?

Actually the VA health system is very well run and efficient. Especially compared towhat it was like in the early 90's when i got out. Presently it is being crushed by trying to provide services for many thousands of newly disabled young people who must have multiple surgeries and extensive rehab but its getting the job done.

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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 1:48:50 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality
When they tell me what the "crisis" is. Then I may support some fixes.


Well for starters, there are about 45,000 people each year who die due to lack of coverage.
Some people call that a crisis.

For example where you live, in Florida
The following things are happening:
in 2006, health insurance ate up 25% of the median family income. Some people think that is a lot.
By 2016, that figure is estimated to rise to 43%; some people think that is a crisis.

In most of the country, more than 50% of all people are insured by only two insurers; its like if everyone only drove Fords or Chevys; thats not a "free market" thats a Soviet style monopoly, except without any controls.

Ironically, if the health care bill passes, you will have more choices about where to get health insurance, than you do under the alleged "free market".

And yeah, even for those people who have insurance? Truth is, you only think you have health insurance. You really don't know what yo have, until you make a claim. And then the insurance company is free to reject your claim, deny, delay, and litigate, until you are dead. Its cheaper that way.

quote:

Do some research. Learn the facts.


Very good advice. Very good, indeed.

(in reply to twistedreality)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 2:04:14 PM   
EbonyWood


Posts: 2044
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality

Our system is what has given us the highest standard of living on the earth. It's not a perfect system, but it is still the best in the world. The bottom line is dont accept what they tell you. Do some research. Learn the facts.


Travelled the world much?
 
Try just making the top 20, and health care? Don't even go there. The names of some better performing countries will embarrass you. I know, I've lived in some of them.
 
You're right. Do some research.

(in reply to twistedreality)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 3:02:18 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Morning all,

I have spent the last couple of days trying to get caught up with the various appearances by President Obama since the State of the Union. I was hoping that the pledges of open, transparent and reaching across the aisle were more than just hot air. It's still too early to make a call on any of those. During the reading of the transcripts I came across something that almost floored me, especially in light of all the cries about misinformation. Without further delay, from his retreat with the Repubs Jan. 29, 2010.

quote:

Jan 29 transcript
For example -- for example, you know, we said from the start that -- that it was going to be important for us to be consistent in saying to people if you can have your -- if you want to keep the health insurance you've got, you can keep it; that you're not going to have anybody getting in between you and your doctor in your decisionmaking. And I think that some of the provisions that got snuck in might have violated that pledge.





So the President himself admits that the bill had stuff snuck in that would have prevented folks from keeping the insurance and or doctor of their own choice, and it goes unmentioned? If this isn't enough reason to require that all bills be debated in the open and posted with plenty of time to read them before a vote, I don't know what is. Did the media report on this anywhere?

What is your opinion on the matter?

I wish you well,
Thadius


No, the media didnt pick up on at all. surprise surprise surprise.

Neither did this board, that has tried to maintain that "you can keep your doctor and your current coverage, period". I expect it to be ignored when I say it, but it must bust a few balloons when Blowbama confirms what Ive been saying.

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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 3:13:36 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality
You can not apply simple answers to complex problems.

You can't? I thought that was what conservative values were all about.

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 3:14:25 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

this board, that has tried to maintain that "you can keep your doctor and your current coverage, period". I expect it to be ignored when I say it


OK--show us.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 3:16:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

this board, that has tried to maintain that "you can keep your doctor and your current coverage, period". I expect it to be ignored when I say it


OK--show us.


Show you what?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Missed admission on Health Care? - 2/5/2010 3:21:13 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Having trouble with the quote/comment system?

You've made a claim, that the portion you've quoted isn't true. Support it.

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