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ElanSubdued -> RE: A Domme in sub's clothing (2/9/2010 4:46:49 PM)
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(Fast replies to various thoughts in the thread.)
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LadyAngelika:
Now, of course, today I know better. I am aware there are men that fit the criteria that I want. I know I can be sadistic, dominant, feminine, nuturing, loving, sensual and sexual all at once. And as time goes by, the sadist in me gets stronger and the masochist in me weaker.
To LadyAngelika: For some, as their sadistic desires grow, their masochist desires lessen. However, there is nothing wrong or unusual about both sides growing simultaneously. As time goes on, one side may dominate the other, but it's also true that people have ebbs and flows where, for various reasons, one side may come out more than the other. It's all good and I realize you know this. I'm noting both sides of the coin to prompt discussion. :-)
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LadyAngelika:
Has anyone else gone down/or is going down a similar path? What have you learned/gained from it?
This is more an answer to the question "have you traveled down the other path (dominant versus submissive) from where you are now"? Most certainly I have and I'm glad of this. There are numerous reasons for this, but the two most notably in my mind are:
1.) Early on in my BDSM dating, I met some frightfully unapproachable, domineering, self-focused dommes and this motivated me to try the other side. I didn't like the style of dominance I was finding so I decided to become my own kind of dominant: balanced, a strong leader, loving, communicative, and egalitarian. The word "egalitarian" may be an odd choice, but what this really means is someone interested their own needs and their partner's needs too, and someone who understands the need for compromise and patience when resolving conflict.
2.) I enjoy learning things completely. Gaining experience on the dominant side of things helped me learn a lot about the kinds of things dominants face and, ironically, it illuminated quite a bit about submission too.
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LafayetteLady to LadyAngelika:
Yes I will think what I like. The point is, whether you like it or not, is that you took a very holier than thou attitude on the other thread, and then come and post how you "played at" (which is deceitful) and "manipulated" others. It is hypocritical and there really isn't a way to deny it. (snip) You say you won't "engage" me, but I would really love to hear how you can justify what you did versus what the OP did in the other thread. When is manipulating people to get your way considered appropriate behavior?
To LafayetteLady: I think you've misunderstood the OP. There are positive and negative forms of manipulation, but kid yourself not, we all use manipulation to get what we want. In the case case of the OP, I believe what is described represents the natural, good-natured flirting and learning that occurs between partners. I see no subterfuge or diabolical intent, and I certainly don't see a desire to circumvent the dominant. Men and women alike use their sexual prowess (both mental and physical) to lure their partners and the partners generally know and consent to being lured. That's what I see here. Someone else pointed out that perhaps the dominants knew exactly what they were doing and that by acquiescing, they were getting exactly what they wanted. This may well be the case. Both partners learned, enjoyed themselves, and got what they wanted. I don't see a problem with this.
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Reform:
Me! Though I'm a submissive in domme's clothing. I first identified as a sub, and still consider myself to be one even though I now switch. I made the decision to corrupt my vanilla bf into being my sub, and I think it's been going wonderfully. I have learned more about my myself then I thought I would. The best thing I've learned is that I do have a sadistic side, and it was there the whole time without my noticing.
This sounds perfectly lovely. :-) I've "corrupted" a few vanilla partners in my time. We talked a lot and then, upon mutual agreement, I gave them a taste of BDSM. (Note, I was a dominant at the time.) They liked the taste and asked for more so I gave them some more. I most certainly lured them by making BDSM approachable, enjoyable, and something they could say "yes or no" to at any time, and I made sure they had fun. Did I leave out things that might be scary to someone new? Of course I did. Small steps. Introducing your partner to new things slowly. Letting your partner ask questions and explore at their own rate. Giving lots of praise for trying something, even if your partner isn't successful the first time around. These are all ways to encourage someone and to help someone feel comfortable. The more candy I put out, the more interested they became. Voila. A kinkster was born! :-) They had fun. I had fun. Everybody came out winning. I've had the opposite too where a vanilla partner simply wasn't interested. If it goes that way, you must drop it. You can't force someone to do something they don't want to do. Well, I suppose you can, but this gets into my definition of abuse.
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sexyred1:
From my perspective, way back when I was a first time sub, I knew I had power in the relationship and I always felt then, as I still do, that many submissive women (I cannot speak for submissive men) have most of the power in relationships. Again, I am only speaking from my own experiences. It is really more mutual for me, than one sided, so perhaps I feel the power is full exchanged, equally.
One of the misnomers it took me a while to come to terms with is regarding power in consensual BDSM relationships. I always had the idea that power rests mostly with the dominant. After learning more about myself and BDSM, I realized this is false. A dominant consents to take on a submissive because they value that submissive. Similarly, a submissive consents to the will of a dominant because they value the dominant. I see an equal amount of power here. Each person has different roles and responsibilities in the relationship, but no less power than the other. Thus, I do tend to think the phrase "power exchange", while used so often its meaning has blurred, is actually quite accurate. Power is exchanged and used in different ways by each person in a BDSM relationship. The combination of both people's reciprocal power working toward mutual goals can be very effective and enjoyable, and this, to me, is an example of gains occurring by allocating each person's power and skills where they are most effective.
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sexyred1:
I have been told many times, that I have not discovered my "inner Domme" yet, but that was always from submissive men wanting me to switch for them. I also have been told by prospective Doms that I am not submissive enough. I always took that to mean they were not the right Dom for me, as they would not be able to inspire any submission in me.
Whether dominant or submissive, I think one's desire for either is a combination of inspiration from others and personal interest and motivation. Things feel false and don't work so well when someone tries to convince you to do something you really don't want to do or you simply don't want to do with that person. Lines like "you're not submissive enough", "you're not dominant enough", and "there's an inner (fill in the blank) just waiting to get out" are often nothing more than an indication of incompatibility between the partners.
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allthatjaz:
I have seen a lot of submissives become dominant and personally I tend to believe they become dominant because they have never found a man that can dominate them and consequently being a sub becomes very yawn worthy. Most of the subs that have become Dommes on the scene, eventually become subs again if they hang around long enough. I know of 3 sub females on the scene at the moment that have all been known as formidable Dommes but who were subs way back when they first came out.
People try different BDSM roles for a multitude of reasons. Sometimes it's because of curiosity about role they've never experienced. Other times, it's because they couldn't find a compatible partner in their preferred role, but they found someone who inspired them enough to try the other side of the fence. Sometimes people enjoy one role, but decide to dive into another because they're curious... only to find they like the original better so they switch back... or, they like the new role so much that they abandon the original. Of course, sometimes people simply enjoy more than one role. Even when the supply of partners in a preferred role is plenty, sometimes you meet someone who attracts you so much in other ways that you decide to compromise or to try something new. I know people who've agreed to demonstrate (for example, as a stunt bottom or stunt top) at a particular event and they enjoyed themselves so much that they decided to explore in more detail. There are many reasons why people experience different sides of BDSM and these may or may not reflect where they ultimately wish to be. I think it's best to accept people at face value and as a culmination of life experiences that have led them to where they are now.
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sexyred1:
I think older women are sexy and know plenty of younger men who agree.
I've met women of all ages who I find sexy. One of the things I find mandatory for attraction is intelligence and breadth in life experience. So yes, in this regard, women who've lived a bit sometimes have an advantage if they've used their years on the planet to gain diversity and breadth. I'll underline again though that I've met women of many ages who are attractive and sexy, and I've certainly met young women who are incredibly intelligent and well balanced despite fewer years of life experience. Grace. Empathy. Poise. Charm. These wear well on just about anyone, regardless of age and gender.
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VaguelyCurious:
...I can flutter my eyelashes with the best of them but I had extreme difficulty with behaving like a submissive - for instance, I can't beg for toffee, I try and I just run out of words after 'please'. I don't think I've ever successfully pulled off the image of a sub, let alone properly submitted.
To VaguelyCurious: I'm a submissive and even still the whole "begging" thing leaves me cold. I have to be super turned on and even then begging, in-and-of-itself, may well take me out of my headspace. It's because I'm generally fairly logical and respectful. For example, when a woman says "no, you can't have nnnn", I assume this means I'm not going to get nnnn. It seems so very odd to ask repeatedly so as to get a different answer. I feel rude doing it even though I've had domme partners who are very turned on by watching me beg. Begging makes me feel difficult, rude, disrespectful, and a host of other things I don't enjoy. For some submissives, begging is a turn-on, but for me, when asked of me, I do it solely to please my partner and not because it's a personal joy trigger.
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VaguelyCurious:
And to LafayetteLady, I would say that IMO there is a difference between not being sure what you want out of a relationship at its inception, and deliberately lying to forty complete strangers for no apparent reason other than your own entertainment, and I think that is the situation here.
I can only comment on the first part because I've not seen the other thread. People grow and change. Sometimes we think we know what we want only to realize later, with more life experience, that we want something quite different. This can happen in any relationship and I think maturity and life experience help guide us in choosing more carefully as we learn about ourselves and others. People sometimes get hurt when relationships dissolve, even when each partner does the best they can to look out for the other. This is part of the risk of relationships and I don't think it means either party is some way at fault. When we're young or trying something new, we learn by doing and experiencing. This, in part, is what I read in Lady Angelika's OP. When she used the word "manipulate", I don't think this was meant with negative connotation or negative intent. As a submissive, I certainly use my sexuality to influence my domme and sometimes, yes, to get what I want. It's up to my domme to decide if she wants my plan to succeed. :-) I consider this all part of mutual seduction.
To VaguelyCurious: I think you've interpreted the gist of this part of the OP correctly: "not being sure what one wants out of a relationship at its inception".
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LadyPact:
The forums are great, and they are certainly a better representation of what porn comes across, but it really is still just a representation. For all the reader out there knows, it's still just that much fantasy. They honestly don't know if I am who I say I am or not. I could just as easily be some guy in Jersey pounding out what I think it might be like to be a femdom while I'm sitting in My mother's basement. Unless they go out and find out for themselves, what feels right for them, they aren't going to know if it's fact or fiction.
While the internet has certainly provided a means of education, it's also taken one away. True, it may be easier now to have a more well rounded picture of femdom, I'm kind of glad it wasn't the method that I used when I started out. It was better for Me to go out into the world and figure out the kind of Domme that I was. Even in those times that I thought I was doing it all wrong. The day that I came to the conclusion that I wasn't going to be what other people thought I was supposed to be, was a hell of a better discovery than anything I've ever found on the internet. You can't do that through a screen. You have to do it in your life.
To LadyPact: Bravo. Spot on. :-)
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lusciouslips19:
Men can be easy to manipulate because they are ruled by their boner...
Women are just as easy to manipulate this way... by their clit-boners, as it were. Each gender also has semi-unique things they can be plied with and we all know it. New shoes? Defined pectoral muscles and/or a nice bum? A big-screen TV? Nice tits? A nicely shaped bulge/cock? Yeah. I don't think either gender is exempt.
Side note: Oops. That somewhat backfired. The quicker I get the image of a "clit-boner" our of my head, the better. Mind you, assuming appropriate context, there's nothing wrong (and everything right) about an aroused, excited clit. :-)
Elan.
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