RE: An Enabling Government (Full Version)

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eyesopened -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/14/2010 5:33:42 AM)

I asked a question that it seems could not be answered.

If we changed the program to be one of healthy food distribution which required the working participation of the benficiaries, that sounds like a good idea.  The question I asked was, how to implement this.  It's one thing to throw out a problem, offer a solution but have no method of implementation. 

Jesus said the poor you will have always.  People are not created equal.  Not everyone is, could be, or even want to be Merc or beth.  I know this sounds crazy but it's true.

One partial solution could be to integrate the social programs.  For example, WIC gives nutrition counciling and food to women and children but is a different agency than Food Stamps and neither combine or coordinate with Unemployment and of course do not coordinate with Education.  All the elements necessary to get people fishing are fragmented and agencies compete for tax dollars.  Coordination between agencies couldn't hurt.

The other problem is jobs.  Do not think for a minute that anyone can have a job just because they want one.  Nor can anyone just start their own business because they can't find a job.  There simply are more people needing work than there is work available. 

There is also a math problem.  The first time I was unemployed I was getting $180 a week plus $60 a week in food stamps.  Day care for my two children was $150 per week had I gone to work and left them in day care.   I simply could not afford to take a minimum wage job which at the time was $4.25.  Working would have left me and my children homeless.  Had I not had the help of my family I could not have paid my rent.  Going to college was really not an option.  I know that sounds lazy but it was what it was. 

Bringing jobs back to America is critical to getting people to "fish" for themselves.

OR we could just do away with all social programs and let the situation be self-adjusting.  Me and my kids and everyone like us could have gone homeless and starved to death.  Then there would have been fewer people and therefore more jobs available for others.  Or we could just adopt China's progarm where any pregnancy not allowed by the government is simply terminated.  That would ensure the future population would be managable and consist of only smart, ambitious people.




tazzygirl -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/14/2010 7:08:08 AM)

quote:

If the spacial interests marketed the benefits to the farms and distribution networks - who would support it. Sell it based on a hard working mother wanting a little be extra, or get a professional photographer to take a picture of a tired woman and her kids - and people are moved.

Next time you see pictures of chicken production farms, or a PETA add about the abuses going on a slaughter houses, keep in mind the welfare scheme is a major contributory factor for its existence. The end product may be a bit more food and assistance to families at a meager level; however at the start of the pipeline are special interest payouts, corporate welfare, delivering groceries serving to provide oxtail, chicken wings, and anything else slaughtered for delivery, intimately generating government welfare payments to corporations. Local farm markets taking welfare funds is a nice, non-factor facade.


Even if food stamps ended, what do you believe would happen to those funds? Church based programs of course. These people would still need to be fed... open more soup kitchens. but, guess what Merc... these funds would still follow that money trail to corporate pockets... because people still need to eat. If you are so dead set against these entities, then stop supporting them yourself.




juliaoceania -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/14/2010 7:56:18 AM)

quote:

Even if food stamps ended, what do you believe would happen to those funds? Church based programs of course. These people would still need to be fed... open more soup kitchens. but, guess what Merc... these funds would still follow that money trail to corporate pockets... because people still need to eat. If you are so dead set against these entities, then stop supporting them yourself.


As I also mentioned earlier, people can buy food at farmer's markets, and that money does not end up in corporate coffers...




tazzygirl -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/14/2010 9:50:07 AM)

even then it will end up in corporate hands. Farm morgatages, loans, investments... supplies, shipping fees, ect. everything ends up as a corporate subsidy.




AnimusRex -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/14/2010 10:51:59 AM)

Ah, how cunning, this theory-
Lets starve the poor people, so they can't buy food from agribusiness corporations.

That'll show Archer Daniels Midland!




thompsonx -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/14/2010 2:57:08 PM)

You have seen the problem and have hit the nail squarely. The solution is quite simple. We simply go back to what was before ADM and their congressional cronies created "the food stamp program". What the food stamp program does is require all of those who use it, to purchase only food grown by Amreican farmers. Thus the buyer is deprived of choice and the seller is given, by the government, a guarenteed set of buyers with "credits" that can only be redeemed for the sellers products.
True it covers all American farmers but since corporate farms make up the overwhelming majority of "American farmers" ... Kewel beans huh?
Now we have decoupled the corporate farm from the government handout and restored choice to the consumer.
Let me guess...you don't like this idea... because it only takes welfare away from the ones who don't need it and leaves it with those who need it?




eyesopened -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/14/2010 6:42:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You have seen the problem and have hit the nail squarely. The solution is quite simple. We simply go back to what was before ADM and their congressional cronies created "the food stamp program". What the food stamp program does is require all of those who use it, to purchase only food grown by Amreican farmers.


Please site your source.  Food Stamps can be used to purchase food regardless of the country of origin.  Someone on food stamps can purchase grapes grown in Chile or Bananas from Panama or shortbread cookies from Scotland.  The only restrictions are non-food items, prepared food (like at a restaurant or a sandwich from the grocery's deli), alcohol, tobacco, cough drops or other otc medicines.  There are no country of origin restrictions. 




thompsonx -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/15/2010 11:26:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You have seen the problem and have hit the nail squarely. The solution is quite simple. We simply go back to what was before ADM and their congressional cronies created "the food stamp program". What the food stamp program does is require all of those who use it, to purchase only food grown by Amreican farmers.


Please site your source.  Food Stamps can be used to purchase food regardless of the country of origin.  Someone on food stamps can purchase grapes grown in Chile or Bananas from Panama or shortbread cookies from Scotland.  The only restrictions are non-food items, prepared food (like at a restaurant or a sandwich from the grocery's deli), alcohol, tobacco, cough drops or other otc medicines.  There are no country of origin restrictions. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program

quote:

Food Stamp Act of 1964 - August 31, 1964
On January 31, 1964, U.S. President Lyndon Johnson called upon Congress to pass legislation making the FSP permanent. Agriculture Secretary Orville Freeman submitted proposed legislation to establish a permanent FSP on April 17, 1964. The bill eventually passed by Congress was H.R. 10222, introduced by Congresswoman Sullivan. One of the members on the House Committee on Agriculture who voted against the FSP in Committee was then Representative Bob Dole. As a Senator, Mr. Dole became a staunch supporter of the Program. Among the official purposes of the Food Stamp Act of 1964 were strengthening the agricultural economy and providing improved levels of nutrition among low-income households; however, the practical purpose was to bring the pilot FSP under Congressional control and to enact the regulations into law. The major provisions were:

The State Plan of Operation requirement and development of eligibility standards by States;
They required that the recipients should purchase their food stamps, while paying the average money spent on food then receiving an amount of food stamps representing an opportunity more nearly to obtain a low-cost nutritionally adequate diet;
The eligibility for purchase with food stamps of all items intended for human consumption except alcoholic beverages and imported foods (the House version would have prohibited the purchase of soft drinks, luxury foods, and luxury frozen foods);
Prohibitions against discrimination on bases of race, religious creed, national origin, or political beliefs;
The division of responsibilities between States (certification and issuance) and the Federal Government (funding of benefits and authorization of retailers and wholesalers), with shared responsibility for funding costs of administration; and
Appropriations for the first year limited to $75 million; for the second year, to $100 million; and, for the third year, to $200 million.
The Agriculture Department estimated that participation in a national FSP would eventually reach 4 million, at a cost of $360 million annually.




juliaoceania -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:05:25 AM)

You cannot use food stamps to buy hot food. 




sirsholly -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:08:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You cannot use food stamps to buy hot food. 
you can here...as long as it is the deli in a supermarket....which is basically set up as a restaurant.  They are even accepted for a salad bar and olive bar.




juliaoceania -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:11:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You cannot use food stamps to buy hot food. 
you can here...as long as it is the deli in a supermarket....which is basically set up as a restaurant.  They are even accepted for a salad bar and olive bar.



You can use them to buy prepared food in a supermarket deli, you cannot buy hot food with them, unless they changed the rules in the last decade.

When I was on food stamps Subway Sandwiches accepted food stamps, but if it was hot (meatball sandwich) you had to pay cash.

The vast majority of restaurants do not accept food stamps because of the "hot" rule. More would if they changed the "hot" rule.




tazzygirl -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:12:17 AM)

10. What foods are eligible for purchase with SNAP benefits?
Households CAN use SNAP benefits to buy:

Foods for the household to eat, such as:
-- breads and cereals
-- fruits and vegetables
-- meats, fish and poultry; and
-- dairy products
Seeds and plants which produce food for the household to eat.

Households CANNOT use SNAP benefits to buy:


Beer, wine, liquor, cigarettes or tobacco
Any nonfood items, such as:
-- pet foods;
-- soaps, paper products; and
-- household supplies.
Vitamins and medicines.
Food that will be eaten in the store.
Hot foods

Listing of Eligible Food Items

Please note that the posted listed does not cover all products currently on the market. As new designations are requested and made, FNS will update the posted list.

How FNS Determines Food Eligibility (Updated 01-26-10)
Eligible Food Items List (pdf)

In some areas, restaurants can be authorized to accept SNAP benefits from qualified homeless, elderly, or disabled people in exchange for low-cost meals. SNAP benefits cannot be exchanged for cash.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/faqs.htm#10

That depends, julia




juliaoceania -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:13:19 AM)

quote:

In some areas, restaurants can be authorized to accept SNAP benefits from qualified homeless, elderly, or disabled people in exchange for low-cost meals. SNAP benefits cannot be exchanged for cash.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/faqs.htm#10

That depends, julia


Like I noted in my last post...




tazzygirl -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:16:13 AM)

Which you changed from your original post as i was posting.




sirsholly -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:22:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You cannot use food stamps to buy hot food. 
you can here...as long as it is the deli in a supermarket....which is basically set up as a restaurant.  They are even accepted for a salad bar and olive bar.



You can use them to buy prepared food in a supermarket deli, you cannot buy hot food with them, unless they changed the rules in the last decade.

When I was on food stamps Subway Sandwiches accepted food stamps, but if it was hot (meatball sandwich) you had to pay cash.

The vast majority of restaurants do not accept food stamps because of the "hot" rule. More would if they changed the "hot" rule.
The supermarkets get around the "restaurant" rule by setting up a casual cafe type seating area. The deli stuff is purchased and the buyer simply goes to the cafe....instant restaurant.

I am not sure what does/does not constitute "hot". I know the fried chicken (on warming trays) can be purchased with food stamps. As to other stuff...i don't even know what they sell because i can't afford it.





sirsholly -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:24:47 AM)

quote:

Food that will be eaten in the store.
the supermarkets (GE, Tazzy) get around this by accepting no responsibility as to where the foods are consumed once paid for.




juliaoceania -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:27:16 AM)

quote:

I know the fried chicken (on warming trays) can be purchased with food stamps. As to other stuff...i don't even know what they sell because i can't afford it.


How do you "know" this?




tazzygirl -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:29:37 AM)

Oh how i know Holly. Many "hot" foods are purchased as deli foods... always a way around everything, ya know.




juliaoceania -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:36:20 AM)

If this is the case perhaps that rule should be changed...

I never bought these sorts of foods when I was receiving food stamps. I could not afford them. We ate pretty simply.




tazzygirl -> RE: An Enabling Government (2/17/2010 9:45:11 AM)

These are packaged to be taken home, not to be eaten in the store. Like the baked chicken, mac and cheese, ect... the chickens are actually not that expensive compared to spending the time to cook one. Caught one on sale for 4.99... two dollars off! And, no, i dont use food stamps.




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