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Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 12:36:40 PM

ownedgirlie

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i am of the mindset that many elements make up a M/s relationship, so if one element is not working, that does not mean the destruction or abandonment of said relationship, it means focusing on what is not working and resolving it.

Having said that, i have recently been thinking about want vs. need. There may come a time when what a slave needs clashes with what the Master ultimately wants within the relationship. The slave’s need may conflict with the Master’s.

If this occurs, is it feasible to change the need of the slave? i would think it would depend on what that need is, and how fundamental it is to her core being. i would also think much scrutiny must take place, to determine if indeed it is a core need, or just something she (or he) really really wants.

However…if it IS a need that needs changing – a core need - then what? Can it be worked through, and if so, is there a cost? Can one reprogram one’s spirit away from something essential? And if so, does that take something away from the person? In other words, IF it is an essential need of mine to receive something he can not (or chooses not to) provide, and i am programmed to no longer need it, has my spirit been somehow numbed? At what point can a mass of clay be molded until it no longer resembles its original essence? If one changes what one’s spirit requires, does the light which shines from that spirit dim in any way?

For those who say they would walk away if they had to change a need, what if every other is being met, in ways they have never been met before? For me personally, i am in this for the long haul, and would not walk away, rather i would work to conform to his directive. In my case, however, i know his directive always includes careful consideration of my well being (even if that means not getting what i want…or perhaps in this case…what i need).

my motivation here is not to ask anyone’s advice, but to create a discussion on a topic i find interesting and thought provoking. i am interested in seeing your replies.

Post #: 1

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 12:53:35 PM

MasterFireMaam

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From: Charleston, WV
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This is a very interesting topic. To me, it boils down to: should we change ourselve FOR someone else? I don't think so. Changing FOR someone means that we are looking for outward approval. Approval should come from within. I think we should change ourselves for ourselves. That we should love ourselves enough to be the very best for ourselves, first and foremost.

Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 2

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 1:03:01 PM

justjill

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Joined: 3/19/2006
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I am sure this is probably splitting hairs but it depends on what type of wants and needs are conflicting. It sounds like you are talking about major needs like if a Master wants a poly household and you need a two person household. Sorry if this example sucks.

In general if the need of a salve is not being met that could be easily with little or no sacrafice on the Master then it should be the Master's responsibility to address it. I think a person needs if they are minor can be suppressed without any trauma but major needs like what you are refering to, especially ones rooted in a person's core personality can never be suppressed. These issues are always about communication from both parties. They need to be talked out and questioned from both ends to determine how serious the differences are and if in fact the needs are needs and the wants are just wants. We are who we are and if the needs are rational and healthy then I would think that they cannot be changed.

I have seen in my life that the most happy and stable people I know have a great understanding of what is a need to them in comparisson to their wants.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 3

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 1:03:26 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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With enough time, energy, resources and work- yes you can change all that, or have it changed to you.

Most of the time it's not worthwhile- it's simpler and more efficient to just end it and move on to find new relationships.

You're discussing a lot of identity and those are awesome questions to ask. But it's impossible to say where "you" end and where "not you" begins. Is it the number of changes? Types of changes? How quickly they occur? Is it better that you become a new you?

For me, if it's a love based relationship, the answer is simple, even if the execution is not- love means allowing someone to be who they are and find what they need- even if it isn't you.

For a non love based relationship, you have to see if the relationship is working as a whole. If I NEED something in order to be fulfilled in myself- then I have to decide what works in the long term. Slaves choose to be in relationships in which they are slaves. If they were no longer allowed to be slaves, should they learn to accept it or find situations that will work for them?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 4

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 1:05:22 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
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From: Maui
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Hi ownedgirlie,Great question!

I think that we only have 3 basic needs, if we are with out children. Food shelter and clothing. My need for food is different then a woman in Somalia which eats only one handful of grain per day, My need from shelter is different then "the peace pilgrim" who has no house but walks the earth with only gods umbrella.

So you have to really think hard when you decide you are not getting your needs met, chances are you are not getting your wants met, and when you realize that, then all sorts of compromises are possible.

No one gets everything they want, that would be impossible, but if you are self aware enough to know what will make you happy long term, then you can communicate and negotiate with your partner/slave/Master to create a blue print that works for you both.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 5

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 1:16:53 PM

BitaTruble

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From: Texas
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I equate 'need' to survive and 'want' to thrive. Put into that context, wants are mutable, needs are not.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 6

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 1:25:09 PM

ownedgirlie

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Thank you for the replies so far.

So then what of the things we so often hear a slave "needs" - such as aftercare, to have a voice, to be fulfilled....are they needs or wants? And what if all but one are met?

i'm curious. Talk amongst yourselves....LOL.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 7

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 1:43:34 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

However…if it IS a need that needs changing – a core need - then what? Can it be worked through, and if so, is there a cost? Can one reprogram one’s spirit away from something essential? And if so, does that take something away from the person? In other words, IF it is an essential need of mine to receive something he can not (or chooses not to) provide, and i am programmed to no longer need it, has my spirit been somehow numbed?

owned,
It sounds as if you are describing the last remaining part of yourself that is NOT a slave. Not a slave to your Master or not a slave to your relationship with him. It's not important to know the exact issue you are describing, but if it has become a distraction it must be addressed. Since you are posing the question in an open forum versus to your Master, I'm assuming you would like to resolve the problem or get it behind you through your own initiative. The ultimate answer will come in determining if the "issue" carries more weight than your Master and your relationship.

First ask the question, WWMD? How would he react if asked to address the concern? Would he feel you are being selfish or in need of re-focus? Is it the result of long time consideration of his needs exclusively and your "human" self is starting to question "what about me?"

The only "problem" could arise if what you are addressing is inconsistent. As a "core" need it should have been visible and talked about extensively at the initiation of your relationship. The more it was "core" and it contrasted with his definition of M/s, the more it should have been discussed. Once you became his slave, subject to his limits, subject to the definition of the relationship, his responsibility was to be consistent. If you are asking him now to be inconsistent, you are asking for the basic nature of the relationship to change. From that point on, at least in this aspect, you are the "master". That's where the decision is.

It doesn't sound as if this is something that you "used to" do together as an indulgence or "treat" provided by your Master. It sounds like either a new need, or one that was considered and eliminated from the relationship as a conscience decision. Masters are not infallible. Masters can change their own minds and enforce that change on his slave. One thing a Master can't do is read minds. The basic tenant of the best advise you'll get from any source is communicate honestly with the person who is most effected. Core need or whim, nothing bad can come from such a discussion.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 8

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 1:45:08 PM

BitaTruble

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From: Texas
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quote:

So then what of the things we so often hear a slave "needs" - such as aftercare, to have a voice, to be fulfilled....are they needs or wants? And what if all but one are met?

I would call all of those 'wants'. The thing is, hon.. you have to determine if you are surviving or thriving and if you are just surviving, is that enough for you? I know what my needs are and they are bare minimums for survival and like I said, they're not mutable. Himself insists that I thrive and determines what it takes for that to happen. I believe, he wants me to thrive because it's better for him that I do so. He wants my growth, my improvment in many areas because he can then take advantage of that growth and improvment for his betterment. Perhaps that simplistic, but I've often found that simple is better.

He is Master or he is not. It's not lip service, it's a way of living. You either embrace it or you don't. You either trust it's what is right for you or you don't. To me, there's not a shade of gray here. I'm an all or nothing sort of girl in this respect.

Have I confused you yet? lol

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 9

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 1:52:23 PM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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Thank you beth. The issue that prompted these questions was already resolved between he & i, but i found the questions interesting so i posed them here for general discussion. i used "i" in my question merely as an example.

i do, however, appreciate your well thought out and stated reply. i am always willing to learn and absorb knowledge from others.

i completely agree with you, however. Core needs can be realized after initial consent occurs, and no one is infallible. Masters may change, and therefore may change their decisions. i know anything my Master decides today is based on who he is and the information he has today. A year from now he may decide something else, and it is my job to adapt.

Again, i appreciate your reply.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 10

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 2:00:38 PM

ownedgirlie

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Thank you, Celeste. i am not confused at all (nice try, heh). The questions i posed were not intended to solicit answers regarding myself, as i have already been working those through with my Master directly. i just found them to be interesting ideas to mull and wanted to toss 'em out there for general discussion.

He does enjoy when i thrive. As in your situation, he benefits from it. Your "simplistic" approach describes my sentiment also. What i have discovered, is that there are things i might really really want and think that i need (okay there was one thing), but perhaps do not really need. Sometimes the premise of "Oh Master, but that is who i am and you are wanting me to compromise that" is really a conscious or subconscious attempt at manipulation.

Ultimately, he knows the difference and provides as he sees fit.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 11

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 2:00:38 PM

BeingChewsie

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Yes, it is possible to change core beliefs. That is essentially what enslavement is, psycholgical change to a target's core beliefs. That is what self-help books teach you to do too. So yes, an owner who understands how we come to hold beliefs or abandon beliefs, and understands that we are driven and constrained by what we believe can change his property's beliefs. Should he? That really depends. If it means that something that the slave once perceived as "bad" is now perceived as "good" and no longer causes her anxiety then it is probably good. If it makes something she once perceived as "good" (but was unhealthy) now perceived as "bad" that is probably good too. There is nothing wrong with re-mapping poor coping mechanisms and faulty beliefs. It is an ethical issue and each owner needs to decide if that is the right path to be taking with his property.

It could be used for nefarious reasons and I'm sure people will point that out. Becoming enslaved is -not- without risk, I think realistically the risks are small compared to the rewards of * living in the moment* and in complete surrender to another. It, like everything else, requires risk/benefit analysis.

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 3/27/2006 2:03:20 PM >

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 12

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 9:03:48 PM

truesub4u

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Owned... you post this post-surgical when my mind is in a haze more than not.

Being as I'm not in a relationship to warrant a response from me, I'm going to respond as far as a former relationship. But I think too, this might actually be putting the shoe on the other foot actually.

When my former owner, decided he wanted to be a father again... (in terms at this time mind you he was 18 years older than me, and his youngest at the time was 19 and oldest, 6 months younger than me), I will for sure tell you.... that was the very last think this one ever wanted, or needed in her life. I was happy in my life as his submissive and actual slave 24/7. We drove 18 wheelers together. We worked, bathed, ate, slept together. I had no actual alone time being locked up in that truck with him 24/7.

He asked me, my thoughts on being a mother, having to quit driving, stay at home, while he was still out on the road. My first thoughts was... NO WAY IN HELL. But first verbal response was... no thank you. It took me years to get where I was in the truck driving field. Being female and all. Women were still trying to show our worthyness to drive and not just sit pretty in jump seat. I seen at tht moment, my life being changed forever. And honestly felt and seen my light going dim. My wants and needs no longer matter when he looked at me and said, when you get pregnant, you will no longer drive, you will beome a stay at home mother.

He was my Master, and what he said was final. Now do not get me wrong.. I wouldn't trade my gals for nothing in the world... now. But there are somethings worth sticking out... and some not. If I was then... like I am now.. I would of missed out on two wonderful girls. Because I know today... I would of been... Kiss my ass.. and slammed the door on the way out.

One doesn't know all the time.... if their wants and or needs are any reson to stay or leave... untill after the fact... depending on the situations. Yes until I conceived the first one... we argued and fought about it. LOL... I lost the battle at that time .... later is became a war.. i've spoke of a few times in other post... and the war.. I did win in the end. Do I think it was all worth it... sometimes... yes.. when I look at my gals. I smile and know it was worth it.... sometimes I talk with trucker friends of mine.. and feel SOME regret... but only till I hear... MOM... can I... and my regret is over come with love for my girls.
Not sure if this helped you.. or even answered your post... but it's what came out when I read your OP... lol

< Message edited by truesub4u -- 3/27/2006 9:04:39 PM >

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

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RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 9:45:59 PM

amayos

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Excellent thoughts, girlie. Your selflessness and devotion to your Master continues to impress me.

To me, a core need in a slave is food, water, oxygen, shelter and warmth. I would not rob my females of these essentials; a corpse serves me no substantive purpose. Other than the essentials of biology, all other things are malleable (on the level we idealize).

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 14

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/27/2006 11:33:32 PM

fullofgrace

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From: fl, usa
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this is something i've been dealing with in helping my roommate out with her problems in her vanilla relationship, so it has been on my mind lately...it is lovely to see a topic about it here! i think this is definitely something that needs to be dialogued.

to me, in a normal, mostly 50/50 relationship, there are certain things that each person holds absolutely important and uncompromising. for example, in my roommate's case, sex is something that is very emotional and important to her, and it is not important to her partner. he is mad at her because she's "unwilling to compromise," but she is unwilling to compromise because she knows if she does she will be very unhappy and she will also be enabling his depression and other issues that are making sex into a negative experience for him. in this case, i think if one or the other of the partners decides that the issue is no longer TRULY this important to them, then there can be some sort of change that would facilitate an eye-to-eye meeting of wants and needs in the relationship that would prevent the discomfort of compromise under duress. otherwise, it is possible that they are just going to be incompatible on a major issue, which would most likely lead to breakup.

in a power exchange relationship, i think the lines there are blurred, especially because the submissive has given over control of his/her wants and needs to some degree (determined by him/her and dominant). this requires a certain level of faith on the submissive's part. i want to post a discussion soon about the difference, to me, between trust and faith, but for now i'll give a quick rundown...i see trust as a basic tenet of every relationship but especially a d/s relationship (i'm speaking of lifestyle d/s here). trust, to me, is knowing that my Dominant would never physically abuse me, that He would never do something that He knows would interfere with His and my wants and needs (which are currently pretty much aligned). however, i have faith, gained by the intuitiveness of our relationship and my devotion to Him, that if He asked me to do something that struck me as incredibly going against my wants or needs or what i think is healthy, i would still do it, because i believe He knows what is best for me...so i think that the end result would be positive. i have faith that He knows more about my wants and needs than i do, because i am learning more and more to communicate openly and honestly with Him. so if He pushed the limits of physical pain, or asked me to do something that He knows is a hard limit, or perhaps even ignored my safeword at sometime in the future, or asked me to make a huge life change that i would have never made for anyone else (even the dominant i served before Him, most likely), i feel that i would be able to do it ultimately because i have this faith that He knows what is best. this is not to say that i don't still communicate what i see as my wants, needs, and concerns, or that i ignore my own opinions, but His word is final to me.

i think that, as in my earlier vanilla description, if a sub is -really- having a hard time giving up something s/he thinks s/he needs, and i'm talking like really really really difficult time, more than just your average trepidation, perhaps they should reevaluate whether or not the situation as a whole is good for them? this is just a suggestion and my own humble opinion, certainly likely to be wrong :) it's just a thought. sometimes if something really doesn't feel right...it just isn't. we should definitely not allow our positive experiences to convince us to stay in a situation that feels, at gut level, wrong in some way. i think if i were having true problems trusting or having faith in my Dominant, not just previous psychological issues/my own trust issues - if i honestly felt He did not know what was best or if my faith really, truly wavered and i began to trust Him less - i would know something was wrong with the situation and would try to work it out but would not be against changing it with the understanding that perhaps it's just not the situation for me.

and i apologize for being rambly! ;) it's 2:30 in the morning. i really must get away! hehehe.

_____________________________

i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to amayos)

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RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/28/2006 12:03:24 AM

KittenWithaTwist

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Very simply, I don't believe in changing my needs to appease someone else. For instance, I need to finish college and I need to get a good job. If my partner could not accomodate these needs, or at least support my need to pursue these goals, we would not be together.

Further, I do believe that someone who does feel that they can change their needs to suit someone else is losing a bit of their self in the bargain. Our wants, desires, needs, goals, struggles, experiences, and losses make us who we are. Sacrificing our wants to appease our partner is one thing, but sacrificing the aspects of our lives that we feel we need-to survive, to be happy, is too much, in my opinion.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

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RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/28/2006 12:05:27 AM

KittenWithaTwist

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I would add the need to pursue happiness to that list...

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 17

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/28/2006 12:31:33 AM

amayos

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Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Yes, it is possible to change core beliefs. That is essentially what enslavement is, psycholgical change to a target's core beliefs. That is what self-help books teach you to do too. So yes, an owner who understands how we come to hold beliefs or abandon beliefs, and understands that we are driven and constrained by what we believe can change his property's beliefs. Should he? That really depends. If it means that something that the slave once perceived as "bad" is now perceived as "good" and no longer causes her anxiety then it is probably good. If it makes something she once perceived as "good" (but was unhealthy) now perceived as "bad" that is probably good too. There is nothing wrong with re-mapping poor coping mechanisms and faulty beliefs. It is an ethical issue and each owner needs to decide if that is the right path to be taking with his property.

It could be used for nefarious reasons and I'm sure people will point that out. Becoming enslaved is -not- without risk, I think realistically the risks are small compared to the rewards of * living in the moment* and in complete surrender to another. It, like everything else, requires risk/benefit analysis.

Well said!

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 18

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/28/2006 3:01:30 AM

fldrkhorse

Posts: 158
Joined: 11/5/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

The way to a MASTERS heart is through his ego. The way to a slaves heart is through his need. Getting his need met is the only reason he is there. Don't meet the need and he'll find someone that will.

_____________________________

I'm not where I need to be, but I'm better than I was yesterday.

Namaste, I honor the divine in you

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 19

RE: Wants vs. Needs and what's worth fighting for? - 3/28/2006 5:49:19 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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Bringing up physical abuse caused a twinge in me. If a slaves physical needs are getting met- she's fed, watered, warm, sheltered, does that mean that it's a WANT to not be physically abused?

Personally my views align with Bita's. If a master wants a thriving slave, there are many things that the slave NEEDS in order to thrive.

But if a master simply wants an operational slave...well they certainly don't need to be free from physical abuse.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 20

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