RE: A question for the liberals. (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 9:07:22 AM)

quote:

Thats ancient history.

your mom and dad did that when they sold you to the state. Scream and holler if you and others like but go to state vital records in the state you were born or the county you were born and pay the 20 bucks for a copy of your birth certificate. The key here is "certificate", it will be on pretty bond paper complete with a bond number for sec tracking.

Cheers!


I am not contributing to this thread to argue with people that believe in wild conspiracies....

Pick fights on another thread




Real0ne -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 9:36:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Thats ancient history.

your mom and dad did that when they sold you to the state. Scream and holler if you and others like but go to state vital records in the state you were born or the county you were born and pay the 20 bucks for a copy of your birth certificate. The key here is "certificate", it will be on pretty bond paper complete with a bond number for sec tracking.

Cheers!


I am not contributing to this thread to argue with people that believe in wild conspiracies....

Pick fights on another thread




julia I am making a point.  We used to a few years ago get the ones that were sold abroad and had sevelal stamps on it.

They are traded.

Sorry to show you the desert of the real but thats simply the way it is.

the dtc has since blocked our ability to get our hands on them....

cheers




juliaoceania -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 9:41:57 AM)

quote:

julia I am making a point.


Dark Steven made this thread for a purpose, one which you are disrespecting.. it is a public forum and you can post wherever you like... but I will not respond to you again




Real0ne -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 9:55:30 AM)

have you considered applying to be a mod?

You could create statutes and enforce precise on topic law and enforce it.  :)




Arpig -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 10:02:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

have you considered applying to be a mod?

You could create statutes and enforce precise on topic law and enforce it.  :)

Oh shut up!


[image]local://upfiles/218457/702500EE10D54C93994BBCFA54BB9E53.jpg[/image]




AnimusRex -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 10:06:48 AM)

I pretty much agree with what Muse said.

Its funny, because as I grow older I see more and more the wisdom and genius of the Founding Fathers.

The Declaration and Constitution and the Federalist papers were not obsessed with "free market" versus "government programs"; in their society, free markets existed alongside government control. For instance, Boston Commons was a "common" area where everyone could graze their cows- sort of a single payer government run feed area. The government regulated production of things, dictating hours of operation, closure on Sabbath days, and such.

In other words, the Founders saw the essential question of liberty as being not having to do with the marketplace, but power. They understod correctly that power, whether government power or private power, tends to collect in fewer and fewer hands, and tends to protect itself.

So they devised a system of distributed power, of making sure there never was a single idea of group or entity that held unchecked power.

So at different times, power needs to be checked, or balanced- sometimes the government holds too much, sometimes the private sector holds too much.

I believe that in the current time, its the banks and corporations that hold far too much power, and that there isn't really any such thing as a "free market"; the private interests have harnessed the power of government to use to their advantage, like Goldman Sachs getting a bailout while their competitor Lehman was allowed to fail.

Bottom line, there will always be a need for private enterprise, and a need for public control of them.




juliaoceania -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 10:10:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I pretty much agree with what Muse said.

Its funny, because as I grow older I see more and more the wisdom and genius of the Founding Fathers.

The Declaration and Constitution and the Federalist papers were not obsessed with "free market" versus "government programs"; in their society, free markets existed alongside government control. For instance, Boston Commons was a "common" area where everyone could graze their cows- sort of a single payer government run feed area. The government regulated production of things, dictating hours of operation, closure on Sabbath days, and such.

In other words, the Founders saw the essential question of liberty as being not having to do with the marketplace, but power. They understod correctly that power, whether government power or private power, tends to collect in fewer and fewer hands, and tends to protect itself.

So they devised a system of distributed power, of making sure there never was a single idea of group or entity that held unchecked power.

So at different times, power needs to be checked, or balanced- sometimes the government holds too much, sometimes the private sector holds too much.

I believe that in the current time, its the banks and corporations that hold far too much power, and that there isn't really any such thing as a "free market"; the private interests have harnessed the power of government to use to their advantage, like Goldman Sachs getting a bailout while their competitor Lehman was allowed to fail.

Bottom line, there will always be a need for private enterprise, and a need for public control of them.


From Federalist Paper no 10. James Madison (yes I am a geek)

quote:

But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society. Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government.


http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm







rulemylife -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 10:16:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

Has everyone seen this video of Rep Maxine Waters lecturing oil company executives during a Congressional hearing? She lets it slip out that liberals want to socialize the entire nation and take over the oil companies. When she catches herself, she can't figure out how to backtrack, and basically, she just keeps on sticking her foot in the mouth. Look closely at the 2 panel members behind her. One of them has to even put her hand over her mouth to keep from showing her reaction.

http://protectourborder.net/catsoutofthebag.wmv

By the way, democrats have prevented us from becoming energy independent by blocking all new nuclear power plants, allowing almost unlimited immigration, and blocked all drilling in pristine areas. Coming from a oil, and gas producing state myself where drilling has been going on for about a 100 years. I can honestly tell you that it does not harm the environment. The only polluted river we have is on the Arkansas border, and that's from too many chicken farms, which is the result of democratic induced overpopulation.



I'm pretty sure we did see it because it's word for word from your "cat's out of the bag"
thread.

The only thing you did was cut and paste your comments in a different order and delete a couple sentences.




Arpig -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 11:29:07 AM)

~FR~
Never mind[:'(]




tazzygirl -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 11:50:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Fiscal liberals. Those who favor government solutions to problems.

What are the reasons you want to see new programs or see an expansion of existing programs?


Historically speaking, in our own history that is, government has been the only entity large enough to affect a change from status quo.

Who or what is government Julia?


Without government you have no infrastructure...that infrastructure requires a government to oversee it.

Government is a word, its a corporation, nothing more than a word that is meaningless until the corpus is identified.  The corpus being the members of the said corporation we call government.

The government therefore is nothing but a fictional character that can produce no energy.


Government is an effective mechanism to getting things done. We are using the infrastructure that our grandparents and great grandparents built. It is beginning to crumble. We need to improve and modernize it. Other countries are doing this through their governments.

With what money?  The government does not have even one red cent!


The profit motive to do these sorts of things does not work because people are shortsighted looking at what will be good for the bottom line next quarter, very few look at what will be good 20 years from now... why should they? They will be gone and retired, and fuck everyone else. Governments should be looking at least 20 years ahead, and when you have yahoos that try to sell tax cuts for the people who could give a shit less how we fare as a country, and they're in it for their bottom line, well that government is going to be stripped of the ability to be responsive to the needs our kids have...

Tax the way it is used today is really wealth redistribution, and a great way to control the poor and uninformed, by offering "privileges and immunities" by contract for handouts.

We have lived off the largess of our great grandparents and our parents, and those that are making the money that the infrastructure of yesterday made want to steal from our children.... really it is disgraceful


Thats ancient history.

your mom and dad did that when they sold you to the state.  Scream and holler if you and others like but go to state vital records in the state you were born or the county you were born and pay the 20 bucks for a copy of your birth certificate.  The key here is "certificate", it will be on pretty bond paper complete with a bond number for sec tracking.

Cheers!



Amazingly enough, i didnt pay a dime to get my son's certificate. Sometimes, RealOne, i think you should investigate more before posting. Often what you say has no basis in reality... beyond the state you live in perhaps.




thishereboi -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 12:56:06 PM)

quote:

I'm sorry, weren't there expllicit instructions left for neocons not to post here?


Yes, and while I would like to respect Stevens wishes, we really don't want him over there either. Maybe he could start a third thread for cucky.

:::waves at everyone and runs back to the right thread:::




thompsonx -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 1:12:57 PM)

quote:

Generally, it's a huge mistake to subsidize an operation that does not pay for itself.


That is why you subsidize them. If they were self sustaining they would not need a subsidy.
The police department does not make a profit.
The fire department does not make a profit.
That is the nature of a government service.

[quote) Wind and solar is not the answer either. The wind doesn't always blow, and the sun doesn't always shine.

On this planet the sun has been shinning all day every day for quite some time.




Tantriqu -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 1:18:03 PM)

Remember, businesses are only in it for profit of their CEO's; government services save money and distribute more fairly. Is government perfect? Of course not! Is it better at distributing more fairly? Absolutely! Also remember most of us are around because of government services guaranteeing safe water, vaccination and education, from LIBERAL programmes like FDR's.
What happens when private businesses move in? They cut services like unprofitable bus/train/plane routes and cut corners, like melamine in children's milk and bacteria in poorly cleaned meat packing plants, all to make more PROFIT. Like 'natural' food products which aren't controlled by the government, and have to be withdrawn every week because of contamination with prescription drugs, like viagra in 'natural' virility pills and steroids in 'natural' protein powder: all done because the natural stuff doesn't work, and if it doesn't work, they're not going to make a PROFIT.
As they say, if businesses were human, they'd be sociopaths because they're only in it for their own gain.
Like the disgraced UK doc who created a whole conspiracy against a vaccination programme because he, a gastroenterologist, wanted to develop his OWN vaccine for his OWN profit, and we're reaping the fruits of his sociopathy with every case of measles, mumps and whooping cough in the un-vaccinated, earlier in the UK and now in the US northeast.
And remember the US is in the bottom quarter of the G20 for income tax rates, so start giving your time and money to worthwhile charities instead of spending it lettering misspelt signs and bemoaning your entitlement.





NorthernGent -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 1:33:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Remember, businesses are only in it for profit of their CEO's; government services save money and distribute more fairly.



The trick is to find a balance whereby you do not dampen enterprise and creativity but you do provide for investment in skills and opportunities for those who seem cut off from society. Not an easy balance to strike.

To say business is all about profit isn't quite true. Many people go into business because they're entrepreneurs who get their kicks from creating a successful business from scratch (before selling it on to someone else and starting again with another business). Also - employees take a share of the profits from business (whether or not you feel it's a fair share is another matter).

I have seen first hand how local government can produce some real success stories in terms of business creation/job creation/raising skills levels - but I've seen waste in local government that would make your toes curl and were the man on the street to find out there'd be uproar.

All in all the government has a role to play and the people have a role to play in not blithely accepting that government 'saves money' but rather demanding value for money. Does anyone actually assess the performance of their local government? Does anyone feedback to them on what performance they expect and what information they expect in order to consider whether or not their tax pounds are being spent wisely?




DarkSteven -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 5:07:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Remember, businesses are only in it for profit of their CEO's; government services save money and distribute more fairly.


Wow.  I'm trying to wrap my mind around that one...

The ideal of private business is for the CEO to run the business to maximize shareholder value.  The self-interest is that he himself is a shareholder.  In theory, maximization of value will require satisfying customers and keeping employees happy.

Unfortunately, Tentriqu, the prevailing view lately is that CEOS do not care about customers or employees.  If that's accurate, then the ideal of capitalism is invalid.





Real0ne -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 5:32:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Amazingly enough, i didnt pay a dime to get my son's certificate. Sometimes, RealOne, i think you should investigate more before posting. Often what you say has no basis in reality... beyond the state you live in perhaps.



http://www.dsf.health.state.pa.us/health/lib/health/old_dir/vitalrecords/forms/pdfs/Birth_by_mail.pdf

PART 4: BIRTH: $10.00 each. If fee is required, make check/money order payable to: VITAL RECORDS.
Fees will be waived for individuals who served or are currently serving in the Armed Forces and their dependents (complete the following):
Armed Forces Member’s Name: ________________________________________Service Number:________________________________
Relationship to Armed Forces Member: _________________________Rank and Branch of Service:_________________________________

maybe it was the first one.  That and did it come from vital statistics or the hospital?

The original from the hospital is not a bond, just the one you get for registering him to share title with the common wealth and give them authority to take him away from you if you are a naughty mom.

Oh and just for shits and giggles.....

Some people are ordering them by the 50 and 100 lots.  

Some people, that is those who understand how to use such an instrument have used them to get out of jail, traffic tickets and all sorts of kool uses.    Now if what I said previous did not blow yours and 1/2 the peoples minds out here that should have finished the job as well as demonstrate how little you really know about the law and how this country operates.  Anyway nuff on that.








juliaoceania -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 5:38:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Remember, businesses are only in it for profit of their CEO's; government services save money and distribute more fairly.


Wow.  I'm trying to wrap my mind around that one...

The ideal of private business is for the CEO to run the business to maximize shareholder value.  The self-interest is that he himself is a shareholder.  In theory, maximization of value will require satisfying customers and keeping employees happy.

Unfortunately, Tentriqu, the prevailing view lately is that CEOS do not care about customers or employees.  If that's accurate, then the ideal of capitalism is invalid.




Which is why perhaps the people who make the profit for the company should own the company, and the profits for the work should go to the employees... such schemes have been successful...




thornhappy -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 5:44:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Remember, businesses are only in it for profit of their CEO's; government services save money and distribute more fairly.


Wow.  I'm trying to wrap my mind around that one...

The ideal of private business is for the CEO to run the business to maximize shareholder value.  The self-interest is that he himself is a shareholder.  In theory, maximization of value will require satisfying customers and keeping employees happy.

Unfortunately, Tentriqu, the prevailing view lately is that CEOS do not care about customers or employees.  If that's accurate, then the ideal of capitalism is invalid.



But one criticism of the stock market in general is that the CEO gets obsessed with meeting the market analysts' projections, since much of his compensation is tied to stock performance.  Meeting these short term goals can be counterproductive in the long term.  That's why some companies stay private, so they don't face those never-ending demands for growth.




NorthernGent -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 6:03:01 PM)

General reply....

The essence of Liberalism was always the democratisation of opportunity and property. 200 years ago government was concerned solely with justice and defence. Since then it has been realised that the invisible hand of the free market is not enough to achieve that objective and that government has a role to play outside of justice and defence. And that's it - the government aren't saving people in the sphere of welfare any more than they are with regard to justice and defence. In their day - John Locke and Voltaire were liberals - regardless of what conservatives would like to think.




Brain -> RE: A question for the liberals. (2/13/2010 7:22:32 PM)

Healthcare, it is not appropriate and it is uncivilized for healthcare to continue as a private sector commodity. Insurance companies are subject to the demands of Wall Street to make profits so shareholders can receive increases in the value of their stock. Consequently, the American people have been treated in an arbitrary and capricious manner having their policies unfairly cancelled when they need them the most. Like the woman in Texas who died of cancer and had her policy cancelled because of a “pre-existing condition”. She had acne several years earlier and her policy was cancelled because “the acne was a pre-existing condition;” ridiculous! The insurance company would not pay for her doctors or the medicine she needed. They should be prosecuted for negligent homicide; unbelievable that these companies make people’s lives a hell hole before they kill them and they get away with it.

Health care as public good
By Walter Tsou, M.D., M.P.H.
Walter Tsou, M.D., M.P.H., is medical director of the Montgomery County Health Department.



The American health care system is in a funk. In the ten years since the founding of Physician’s News Digest, our patchwork network of providers, payers and patients is fraying at the edges and precariously close to ripping into pieces. Left like an anchorless ship cast out in an unfriendly sea, the crew is scrambling around trying to hold on to driftwood and dinghies. Our system is adrift, tossed around by heavy winds from Wall Street, government and insurers. It is a system so convoluted that experts cannot easily explain it, much less defend it. Unclear of our own direction, the health care system has been handed over to entrepreneurs who have distorted health care from a public good to a market commodity.

As a society, we have and will continue to pay a heavy price for this sea change. It is witnessed daily in the ERs of hospitals straining under the burden of the uninsured. It is felt by patients in need of medical care who are afraid to seek medical advice because of cost. It is felt by physicians who are faced daily with phone calls and paperwork to defend providing quality medical care. Most prominently, it is felt by the incessant drive for profits wrung out of diminishing reimbursements.

There are several perspectives on how physicians should respond to these sweeping changes. All of these perspectives share one common theme: "United we stand, divided we will surely fall." The debate centers on what system we should rally around. Some physicians believe that by unionizing or forming a corporation, they can use their thousand dollar slingshot to slay a multibillion dollar Goliath. Sadly, they cannot. Equally disturbing is that unions or corporations simply accept the market-based approach to health care, trying to fight dragons with toothpicks. However, there is one force, big enough, strong enough to fight this dragon and return health care to a public good again.

A properly financed, universal health insurance program offers the best opportunity to provide what Americans want in their health care system, namely high quality, affordable health care for all Americans. Not surprisingly, it is something that most physicians also want and would benefit from.

Why would physicians, in the name of organized medicine, be willing to accept something that they have fought against for 80 years? It is because the current market approach has created artificial divisions between health care systems turning former colleagues into enemies. It is because physicians have been asked to practice risk aversion and fragmentary care.

It is because the cost constraints of the current bureaucratic system forces physicians to choose between the lesser of inadequate choices. It is because the increasing loss of employment-based health insurance threatens to destroy families and even neighborhoods. Physicians are realizing that either we unite against these market forces or we will wither into irrelevance.

There are various versions of how people interpret national health insurance. My vision would separate the delivery of health care from the role of financing. Our current system puts the cart before the horse. Insurers determine how much they want to finance and then force providers to decide what can be provided on these dollars.

Let’s boldly propose something logical. Let’s come to an agreement on what we want to provide and to whom, and then find a way to finance it.
By defining the delivery system first, we have a better opportunity to create a more user-friendly system. I contend that given this directive, we would support an extensive range of services made available to all Americans which reflects extensive community-based, primary and secondary levels of care. Tertiary referral centers would be designed around academic medical centers and would also be located within reasonable geographic access for all Americans. The transition from primary, secondary and tertiary levels of care would be logically organized to ensure a comprehensive range of services. Transportation and communication links would be explicitly funded.

We would finally recognize and fund what we have ignored for too long: long-term, respite, and nursing home care.

The foundation for all medical care would be based on public health planning. Health policy would reflect health education, nutrition, and regulations which support healthy lifestyles and preventive screenings.

Registries would be created where all immunizations and diseases would be reported under a common regional database. All communicable diseases would be reported.

Paperwork would actually have value. Millions of hours have been spent collecting information for private insurers. Unlike our current system where paperwork is based on the endless submission of financial justifications, it could instead be used to better describe to whom and what we deliver in medical services (immunizations, hospitalizations, etc.) We can also use this data to track more important questions such as emerging diseases in a community. New guidelines based on clinical outcomes could be developed regionally, leading to better use of community resources.

Financing of health care would be based on the concept of public good. If all citizens receive benefits, then they all contribute based on their own ability to pay through income taxes. Funds would pay for all medically acceptable inpatient and outpatient services, both physical and mental. Over the lifespan of an age cohort, money saved when young and healthy would fund care when older.

Physicians would be paid on salary or through physician-negotiated capitation. The latter would be a novel concept, but would allow physicians to adjust their capitation based on severity of illness and the success of their clinical outcomes.

How could we fund national health insurance at a reasonable price? HR 1200, a single payer, national health insurance bill introduced by Rep. Jim McDermott (D- WA), who is one of three physicians in Congress, funds his bill with an 8.7 percent payroll tax and a 2.2 percent of taxable income tax. A tobacco tax equal to $0.45 per cigarette pack is also imposed. This is far cheaper than most individuals and employers pay in private insurance premiums. Already, we have the financial resources to implement this with current dollars spent on health care, since we now spend 40 percent more per capita than any other nation on earth.

To ensure that the system remains dynamic, clinical and scientific research would be funded through academic centers and community-based clinical trials. As discoveries are made, they would be incorporated into the medical benefits package. A variety of treatment options would be offered, unless one option is found to be clearly superior. Medical education would be explicitly funded and new discoveries incorporated into the curriculum. Teaching hospitals would be reimbursed to recognize their role in teaching medical residents and students.

Most physicians will be pleasantly surprised at how much easier it is to practice under a properly financed national health insurance system. Most billing specialists note that Medicare, our closest analogy to a national health insurance program, is by far the easiest to bill. One address pays all bills. In fact, under such a system we can promise payment within 30 days and reconcile any differences in future payments. Money saved in billing costs would be used to either reduce taxes or enhance medical benefits.

Second, physicians or hospitals should experience far less micromanagement or medical justification for their actions as long as their services are within the global budget for all physician services. Physicians can choose any lab, specialist or drug that they feel is appropriate for care as long as it could be paid within their own capitation. Further, they could be rewarded with enhanced reimbursement for favorable clinical outcomes.

Third, malpractice premiums should decrease dramatically for two reasons. First, because our current system does not assure universal coverage for all Americans, we must include future health care costs into any malpractice settlement. However, under universal coverage, future health care costs would be assumed by the health care system. Second, because money does not change hands between patient and physician, physicians are seen more as patient advocates. In Canada, malpractice premiums are 80-90 percent cheaper.

Fourth, everyone who gets services, pays. Under universal coverage, charity care becomes unnecessary ensuring a more predictable revenue stream. For inner city and rural health care institutions, leveling the playing field for reimbursement ensures a more rational use and distribution of health resources.

What will be the steps for creating a stronger role of government financing in America? There have been several early steps. First, the five year budget bill included the first major expansion in government financing since Medicare/Medicaid. Recognizing the moral imperative of access to health care for children, a Republican Congress funded a $24 billion dollar expansion of children’s health insurance. Second, some form of campaign finance reform will diminish the influence of business interests over politicians. And third, more states will join the 20 current states who have passed some form of managed care bill of rights.

But the next major change has to come from physicians. Already, in December 1997, a petition called the "Call To Action," signed by thousands of doctors nationwide, will be published in JAMA. It will ask for several action steps, including a moratorium on further for-profit conversions in medical organizations and universal coverage for all Americans.

We have been more united on what we dislike about the health care system than on what we are in favor of. And by being divided, we have been essentially neutralized in the debate about health care reform.

It is difficult for physicians to embrace what organized medicine has fought against for years. But the current direction of market driven health care will ultimately destroy humane medical practice. The market commodity approach to medicine has distorted the very essence of why we chose to go into medicine.

With us or without us, the demand for government intervention will grow. If we as physicians continue to remain opposed to government financing, we will become mere pawns as the market auctions off our services to the lowest bidder. But if we accept a wider role for government financing now, we have a chance to redirect health care as a public good for all Americans.

Nothing better guarantees employment for physicians than 42 million newly re-enfranchised citizens who have been excluded by an unfair system. And nothing that we as a nation can do would be fairer than to create an equitable health system where health is not a commodity but a public good.

http://www.physiciansnews.com/anniversary/tsou.html



quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Fiscal liberals.  Those who favor government solutions to problems.

What are the reasons you want to see new programs or see an expansion of existing programs?

I have a strong bias towards using the private sector whenever possible.

Obviously, a publicly supported police system is vital.  (Although security companies compete.)  Also, and armed forces could not be sustained by private industry.

I like the SBIR program, which funds small businesses to meet government's needs.

What are some other instances where private industry cannot or will not get the job done as well as government?

Conservatives, please post in the thread created for you.

Anyone who has feelings both ways on the matter, feel free to post in both threads.






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