"Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" (Full Version)

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NoCalOwner -> "Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" (9/9/2004 2:08:53 PM)

Here's a topic for everybody, but especially those of us who have not been formally trained in either Gorean or "Old Guard" traditions.

The Gorean thing has never really seemed like the right fit for me personally. Many things about traditional BDSM culture -- "Old Guard" slave positions, for example, have great appeal for me, and I happily put them to use. However, without some serious editing, the traditional treatment of a slave retains a very military air about it. In a historical context this makes perfect sense, but what if military isn't a flavor you care for?

On the other hand, creating your own D/s culture from scratch is a daunting task, and the result may have no... well... art to it. No consistent theme, no asthetic focus. I want my slave's style of service to be as beautiful as she is. Home-brew D/s may also overlook structural elements needed to make the whole thing work.

With this in mind, I've started checking into the way harems were managed. They existed from Morocco to India for well over a millenium, and sometimes included up to 15,000 women. It seems like harem managers should've known one hell of a lot about the subject, eh? Documentation is (so far) hard to find, but I'm doing the best that I can. I love it when my slave puts on her harem pants and ankle bells, and dances for me, it's a theme I could be perfectly happy with.

Has anybody else done anything like this, or at least felt strange enough when yelling "Attention!" at a nude woman to consider whether there might be alternatives?



randsboy -> RE: "Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" (9/9/2004 4:04:12 PM)

Sir,
my Master does not know what the "Old Gaurd" slave positions are. perhaps You would like to enlighten us. Old Gaurd seems to be talked of often, but what is it really??



subbiejenn -> RE: "Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" (9/9/2004 6:38:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randsboy

Sir,
my Master does not know what the "Old Gaurd" slave positions are. perhaps You would like to enlighten us. Old Gaurd seems to be talked of often, but what is it really??


i don't know a lot about positions but i do have a link on them :)

training positions

Gorean Slave Positions

Hope this helps



NoCalOwner -> RE: "Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" (9/9/2004 8:06:16 PM)

There is no single set of traditional positions, because different people along the way introduced their own variations (both in terms of exact position, and of command used to order that position) and taught them to others. So there are whole family trees of variants.
Many groups are secretive about such things for one reason or another, so while there is overlap, don't expect to learn any heritage's positions without being trained by them. I'm only giving one example here, and it's not likely to be the best around, but it will give you some sort of idea of what I'm talking about. Again, do not expect anyone but the author of this page to do things quite as he describes -- they won't. And there is no "right" way aside from whatever you have need for and like best.

http://www.bestslavetraining.com/slavepositions.htm



Suleiman -> RE: "Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" (9/9/2004 9:55:13 PM)

I find that "Old Guard" is something of a loaded subject, largely because, as NoCalOwner so succinctly states, the old guard is a broad variety of traditions, most of whom are not used to communicating with outsiders. There is, therefore, a particular set of assumptions in each "clan" (for lack of a better defining word to describe these groupings) based on how the members have agreed to behave. The only truly universal thing I have encountered about "Old Guard" adherents is that they are for the most part rather conservative. They were initiated into the lifestyle in a certian way, and often consider any behavior outside of those restrictions to be a breach of etiquette. I have met old guard adherents who were offended by the idea of a "switch" (frequently, they were also offended by the concept of bisexuality - you could be straight or gay, but should never go back and forth), or someone being involved in the scene in anything less than a 24/7 lifestyle arrangement (thus not acting your role, but treating your partner with the same sort of equality a "vanilla" couple uses, is considered inappropriate), or any number of other odd rules. I have never met two "old guard" adherents with the same set of customs and rules, that were not somehow connected (trained by the same master, for instance).

That being said, I believe that many of these old guard societies have valuable opinions to offer - I just don't think that their rules are written in stone. I don't believe that women are inherently superior to men, or vice versa (thus, those who sub, sub. Those who top, top.) I don't think that a person is restricted to one lifestyle their entire lives (everybody changes as they grow and learn. It's part of life.) I do agree that a would-be top can learn a lot from spending a few years as a bottom first. I've known too many people who claimed to be into SM - but only as a dominant - who were, at best, vanilla pretenders, and at worse, a danger to whatever poor submissive they get into their clutches. (I do not believe, however, that a top who has never subbed is automatically unqualified - I just prefer a dom who has some empathy for whatever they're putting the bottom through).

As to particular styles, Military is only one format, albeit a popular one. Gor is also strangely popular (I've never understood the attraction. The guy obviously had never been on a date with a real girl. He didn't figure out that women get wet for the first... what... four or five novels? I came up with better fantasies before I hit puberty). Victoriana is quite popular, and veers more into cosplay than roleplay. Classic hellfire club/"story of O" bondage and submission is quite popular, and goes back to Venus in Furs, and to a lesser extent some of the libertine writings of DeSade. Personally, I've always considered myself a "Modern Libertine" - While not wealthy, I am a man blessed with an extraordinary amount of leisure time, and the desire to do... whatever... simply for the thrill of doing it. When I was younger, I experimented with almost every kind of sexuality that I consdiered to be legal and ethical, just to see if I liked it. I found that very little was an actual turn-off, but most variations were little more than a temporary amusement.

The only model that matters is the one agreed upon between top and bottom. It helps if you are surrounded by a community that understands and condones what you're doing. Want to use SM as a form of great rite, with mock crucifixion as the culmination of the demise of the Horned God? Got a coven that agrees with you on this? Great! That's your model. Priest and priestess are borth switch, alternating between top and bottom as the great wheel demands. Female has two lovers who beat each other bloody twice a year to establish a new pattern of dominance. Is it old guard? Hell no! I know a bunch of pervs, and a bunch of wiccans, who would all be offended by the idea. I also know several covens who do this exact sort of thing, or variations thereof.

A little imagination, and a little research, is all it takes to create whatever atmosphere you and your lover need to have all the hot sweaty weaselsex you can handle. Do what feels right. Stay safe, stay sane, stay consensual. The rest can sort itself out.

~S



lilninotchka -> RE: "Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" (9/11/2004 3:30:25 PM)

S,

i have a few questions for you, if you don't mind...probably off on a bit of a tangent, but at least related to the topic at hand.

You speak here of 'styles'. First i will say that i have never experienced submission or D/s or S/m or anything related as any kind of style. It's never been about sex, but rather simply being the submissive person in a relationship. That is, submissive in all things and areas, not just the bedroom. i would like to know if you see some advantage to using 'styles' as you speak of them here. i mean theoretically and in general (NOT a "your way or my way" type of thing). i understand that everyone must 'find their own thing' to be happy. i am just wondering if you see some advantage to having/using a 'style' with or without a support group and with or without it being recognised by others or other groups. i would also like to know if this sort of 'themed' thing would likely be carried throughout the relationship, or kept to the bedroom or 'playtime'.

Thanks in advance :)



LadyShoshin -> RE: "Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" Old Guard (9/12/2004 5:05:36 AM)

Links to some articles by people in the know
http://fetishexchange.org/old-guard.shtml
http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/olddays.htm
http://fetishexchange.org/old-guard-myth.shtml



Suleiman -> RE: "Sir, yes Sir, thank you Sir!" Old Guard (9/12/2004 11:20:21 AM)

Thank you, LadyShoshin, for those links. I've been trying for the last several hours to come up with a cogent answer to lilninotchka's question, but I've been an outsider to the scene for too long at this point - I just don't have the pervert civics lessons memorised any more.

I will say this - it's all roleplaying. So is every relationship, to one degree or another. Persona is the word for that face we put on when dealing with the world outside our own skulls. Vanilla is often the most heavily laden with unconscious roleplay, the man taking his societally assumed position as "the man", the woman accepting or rebelling against the vanilla-sub position socially ordained for women. We roleplay all the time, never completelyt being who we really are, but selectively showingcertian parts of ourselves, perhaps embellishing the details for certain audiences. The D/s lifestyle, even if 24/7, is just another form of roleplay. No one is 100% dominant all of the time, and no one is 100% submissive all of the time. We all feel vulnerable or emotionally fragile, even if we don't want to show it. We all wish to assert our view of the world, even if all we are doing is reasserting our own lack of status.

The basic answer to your question is this: When dealing with BDSM, some folks need a more elaborate framework around which to build their scene or even their relationship. When you embrace the leather side of the force, you sort of toss the vanilla handbook out the window. Some people feel a little lost, and so become part of some supportive society that uses a leather handbook, and then accept those rules as a guideline to replace their previous format. All that I had meant to say was that, with a little creativity and prior negotiation, it is possible to create your own handbook, instead of relying on someone else's (which may not work for you as well), or even to simply borrow those parts of someone's accepted lifestyle roles which work for you in the current relationship that you're in, and discard those parts which don't work, or that are meaningless for you.

I hope this helps - I only just woke up, so I'm not sure this is as lucid as I think it is.

~S



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