RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


DomKen -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/18/2010 12:16:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
But wind nor solar will get us to the capacity volume to replace all the electricity we consume from coal anytime in the next decade.
Only Nuclear power has that kind of capacity ready to put to work quiclkly enough to replace the coal fired plants capacity.

We would be well served to get away from the point production of electricty except for peak demand. Roof top solar and wind with good storage technologies can provide most baseline needs. Natural gas fired plants to fill peak demand won't completely eliminate carbon output but it would greatly reduce it.




samboct -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/18/2010 5:55:13 AM)

On the economics of nuclear power yet again for Archer et al-

Nuclear plants are "profitable" in the US because they are subsidized. Even Wilbur pointed out that if decommissioning costs are included, their "profitability" takes a nosedive. Insurance is also subsidized. Nuclear plants have to pay into a pool if there's an accident because no commercial insurer would touch them. If the pool is inadequate to cover the costs of the accident- guess who picks up the tab? Nuclear plants also don't have to cover the cost of waste disposal- the US gov't decided that since it would have to solve the problem from weapons production, the nuclear energy industry would get a free ride- paid for by the US taxpayer of course. I suspect by this point the volume of spent nuclear fuel far outweighs the amount of weapons waste, although the weapons waste is probably much nastier.

In terms of reprocessing spent fuel- France does that. A high ranking guy from the French nuclear agency (I have his name in my notes) at a very contentious session at the fall MRS meeting a few years ago- when asked about the cost of reprocessed fuel responded- "I don't know." Estimates of the cost of the reprocessed fuel from someone on the other side of the debate were $3,000/kg. (maybe euros) which got a grudging nod. Cost of new fuel- $30/kg. Since fuel is a significant cost of running a nuke plant in its lifetime, guess what happens to the economics of a nuke plant if you have to buy reprocessed fuel at 100x the cost of new fuel? When Carter said the US wasn't going to get into reprocessing spent fuel so that the technology wouldn't be available to terrorists (turns out to be a red herring, you still need to concentrate the uranium or plutonium further) there were good economic reasons to avoid this technology. Looks like there still are.

The reality is that we don't know what the true costs of nuclear power are, because we haven't finished paying for it. Like a con man that takes your savings to repair your house, and then leaves an enormous mess which has to be disposed of, we're going to paying for the cleanup for a long time. None of the economics on the profitability of nuclear plants include these clean up costs.

I have no idea who is claiming that we can't build enough wind or solar to make a dent in our power consumption. That it hasn't been installed yet- true. That it can't be done- idiocy. There's plenty of wind energy in this country, and it's looking like higher quality wind (steadier) is offshore. Also- there's plenty of solar energy too. As noted time and time again, we have a storage and transmission problem- both of which have technological solutions that are either available now or in the near term- we just have to start building rather than arguing.

Also- the doom and gloom of power consumption will always increase- nonsense. Europe and Japan have decoupled GDP from power consumption, and the US would have as well if we didn't have as many realtors who insist that an hour commute only takes 15 minutes. If gas prices go up further, it's probable that our GDP will also decouple from energy usage. That China and India will wind up consuming as much power/individual as the US- unlikely. China is already gearing up to replace fossil fuels in their economy- we need to catch up instead of this silly debate sponsored by an industry which has lost billions of dollars for decades.

Sam




Termyn8or -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/18/2010 7:52:59 AM)

FR

While I am all for a few more nuclear plants, we shouldn't be in a hurry to built thousands of them, for reasons already stated involving waste and risk. First of all the technology is a bit bnackwards. I believe ways will be found eventually that are even more efficient. Some already exist, and though the money people don't like them, there are some which pose real problems involving their implementation. And that particularly goes for the US which comsumes alot, to say the least.

Fission, and even fusion of today is an indirect process. Heat is generated and it turns shafts to power a turbine. In turn there are generators of course. Very inefficient actually. Fusion is hard to use effectively and has trouble generating it's own power hungry containment field. Still it produces heat which........... No big gain here using current technology.

But now we have some recent developments in fuel cell technology. The water powered car is a reality, and more efficient than ever. Even that would be very difficult to implement on such a large scale.

Then we have the possibility of making the generators themselves more efficient using something like "hummingbird" motor technology. The drawback is that the efficiancy will drop as the permanent magnets lose their power over the years. However it might lend itself well to nuclear power because nuclear plants are commonly decommisioned after so many decades.

No matter what, nuclear energy is still a consuming resource. As these plants are decommisioned the land and surrounding area is not fit for agracultural use, nor many others. In the long run, it's not such a good deal. However with the lack of a better technology it's all we have. Coal just isn't going to cut it. The sulfur content of the coal (which causes acid rain) is a big problem. You can't remove an element from the exhaust of a burning process without taking to great lengths. Nitrogen and it's propensity to combine into other nasty pollutants is another ball of wax. The nitrogen chiefly comes from the intake air. An O2 concentrator could be used, not unlike a machine they would use in a hospital. It is actually only a nitrogen remover in theory, but since nitrogen is about 78% of the air, it is effective enough. However building one with enough output for large scale power generation will be a challenge.

However the first part of the real solution has nothing to do with technology. Real solutions are found by good thinkers who are not politically influenced or motivated. We have too much junk science. Money can prove the sky is red, just give it a reason. Unfortunately the way the world works today that is the biggest challenge.

Nuke plants ? Yes we need to build a couple. However it is my considered opinion that we are not ready to go whole hog into this. Neither was France. However they did what they had to do, and so must we.

Other technologies sit there undeveloped as well. It is possible to use ocean currents and tides to generate huge amount of electricity, but again whether politics and money have had a negative effect on this development, it is also difficult to implement.

At this point in history, the undisputed best solution is to cut demand. There are only two ways to accompish that. Either each person uses less or there will have to be less persons. I'm starting to believe that any other solution is not all that effective and probably limited in life, either due to obsolesence or deterioration. And nothing is cheap either.

And even a grand scale cutback in personal demand will do nothing to abate the needs of industry, if we ever get any back. And that is paramount to the economic recovery, so the demand will hopefully be there, or we are screwed either way.

T




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/18/2010 8:02:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

On the economics of nuclear power yet again for Archer et al-

Nuclear plants are "profitable" in the US because they are subsidized. Even Wilbur pointed out that if decommissioning costs are included, their "profitability" takes a nosedive. Insurance is also subsidized. Nuclear plants have to pay into a pool if there's an accident because no commercial insurer would touch them. If the pool is inadequate to cover the costs of the accident- guess who picks up the tab?



It is a bit odd to say that they are profitable because they are subsidized and then agree that profitability nosedives with decommissioning costs. The government requires the decommissioning reserves, so whatever subsidies you claim are being given are offset by needless reserves.

High risk pools are not subsidies and the government has not covered any losses, including TMI, where all payments came from the pool. The claims experience of nuclear insurers worldwide has made it extremely profitable and its desirable business. The government is "insurer of last resort" for any potential disaster, natural or manmade. There is nothing unique about the nuclear risk, other than the high engineering and maintenance standards that apply that make it less risky.




servantforuse -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/18/2010 8:21:02 AM)

Drill Baby Drill....




samboct -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/18/2010 8:34:11 AM)

Wilbur

On the insurance issue- I found this to be some interesting reading. The authors also agree that the industry has an effective subsidy that other industries which handle hazardous materials do not- and that studies conducted by Sandia show that the insurance carried by nuclear operators under the Price/Anderson act of 1957 are wildly inadequate.

http://www.nuclearpowerprocon.org/pop/Price-Anderson.htm

Sam




samboct -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/21/2010 5:52:30 AM)

A recent issue of Science (29 Jan. 2010) shows how politically charged this issue of global warming is-

The actions of NASA during the Bush II administration are highly suspect from a scientists viewpoint given the antipathy of that administration to science. An example-

An article of p. 530 discusses the challenges of climate geoengineering- the idea of injecting massive amounts of material into the atmosphere to cool the planet. The volumes needed are in Tg or 10E 12 grams. To give this number some meaning- the total mass of human population of the US is about 20 Tg, and the authors show that ~5 Tg would be needed/yr to equal the effect of Mt. Pinatubo which erupted in 1991 (volcanic eruptions are the model for this idea)- and that eruption was 20 Tg.

However, further understanding of how aerosols affect the global temperature are key for this type of engineering- which is high risk indeed because it's not possible to gather much useful information from small scale experiments- a thin layer of injected material won't have a detectable effect. Here's where the actions of the Bush administration get suspect. The SAGE (Stratospheric Aerosol and Gasl Experiment) II satellite gathered data on the Pinatubo eruption after 1991. SAGE III flew from 2002-2006- however, the replacement satellite has languished in a NASA storeroom. Seems to me that this is a peculiar ordering of priorities as to what flies and what doesn't. It's also extremely disingenuous to claim that global climate change is unproven and we shouldn't worry about it- and then not go get more data to clarify the situation.

On the other side of the coin- the Himalayan glacier meltdown reported in the IPCC (glaciers will be gone by 2035) is in error according to some climatologists who went to the primary sources of the IPCC report and found that they weren't in the peer reviewed literature. There's a bit of egg on the face of the chairman of the IPCC report because he's from India and has repeated this claim. Unfortunately the claim relies on a 25x greater rate of melting than was observed from 1960-1999 and violates existing known relationships between climate and glacier melting- unless of course the rate of warming increases dramatically. But that wasn't the point of the IPCC report...

Not surprising that the IPCC report contains errors- it's a massive undertaking. But it's like claiming that when Newton's treatise on calculus was published, it too contained an error on a simple integration. Did that invalidate the calculus? Breaking one window doesn't mean that the whole house has to be knocked down. In short the error in the IPCC report is not in the foundation of the report- just one of the myriad observations of potential effects.


Sam




AnimusRex -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/21/2010 11:08:01 AM)

The gullible and ignorant always seize upon "scientific errors" as a way of brushing aside science in favor of superstition and politically motivated theories.

I looked at the Jesus, Dinisaurs & More website and their main attack on evolution consists of pointing out errors in scientific theories.

Science is actully riddled with errors, unexplained phenomenon and anomolous data. Even things like the theory of gravity has unexplained data that doesn't fit; the theory of evolution was plagued by the Piltdown Man scandal of the early 1900's when a supposed "missing link" fossil was found to have been deliberately faked.

But overall, most scientific theories work; when the Pentagon sends a missile, it relies upon laws and theories of physics that predict where the bomb should fall. When Chevron explores for oil, it relies upon the science of geology that in turn relies upon a 4 Billion year old earth. When doctors study ways to find new medicine they rely upon theories that rely upon Darwin's theories.

None of these theories are proven, but so far, all have shown to be reliable.




Musicmystery -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/21/2010 11:10:37 AM)

Actually, nothing in science is ever "proven." In fact, "You can't disprove it" is the national slogan of those ignoring logic.

If it's not testable, it's not science.




samboct -> RE: Nuclear Energy: Congrats, President Obama (2/21/2010 2:42:36 PM)

Another definition of science is that if it can't be proved wrong- it's not science, it's a belief. Creationism always boils down to faith...

Sam




Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.09375