RE: Lets Yell Wolf

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jlf1961 -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 7:46:22 PM)
Thadius, you were probably the gunman on the grassy knoll, the man that launched the rockets into the wtc AND set the explosive charges. Finally, you were probably the guy that took the crashed UFO at Roswell.

Aneirin -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 7:48:34 PM)
With a conspiracy theorist, at least their mind is alive, whereas those that accept what they are told, their mind is dead to themselves, they have been trained well.

Thadius -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 7:50:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Thadius, you were probably the gunman on the grassy knoll, the man that launched the rockets into the wtc AND set the explosive charges. Finally, you were probably the guy that took the crashed UFO at Roswell. Sorry, the grassy knoll and Roswell were before I was born. As to the other things all I can say is "I cannot confirm or deny any involvement or knowledge of what you are referring to."

Thadius -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 7:54:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin With a conspiracy theorist, at least their mind is alive, whereas those that accept what they are told, their mind is dead to themselves, they have been trained well. My miind is far from dead (literally or figuratively). As for being trained to think a certain way, does being skeptical and cynical of irrational claims count? I am a firm believer in the old addage "Trust but verify". I don't take what is told to me as gospel from just anybody. However, there are a few folks that if they told me the sky was purple today, I would have to take them at their word. Seems like a simple concept to me.

Musicmystery -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 7:56:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin With a conspiracy theorist, at least their mind is alive, whereas those that accept what they are told, their mind is dead to themselves, they have been trained well. Then there are those that learned to do their own homework, examine methodology, and drew sensible conclusions instead of another hit on the bong. With those folks, at least their minds are alive to multiple possibilities, instead of those accepting the either/or paradigm, whose minds are dead to themselves, trained poorly. They also learned not to excuse self-righteous intellectual laziness as a stand-in for thinking.

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 9:14:59 PM)
Well, the only problem with conspiracy theorists is that, according to the shrinks," proposes that conspiracy thinking arises from a combination of two factors, when someone: 1) holds strong individualist values and 2) lacks a sense of control. The first attribute refers to people who care deeply about an individual's right to make their own choices and direct their own lives without interference or obligations to a larger system (like the government). But combine this with a sense of powerlessness in one's own life, and you get what Melley calls agency panic, "intense anxiety about an apparent loss of autonomy" to outside forces or regulators." There is also this little tidbit: Melley seeks to explain why conspiracy theories and paranoia have become so pervasive in American culture in recent decades. He discusses some of the paranoia behind our obsessions with political assassinations, gender and race relations, stalkers, mind control, bureaucracies, and the power of corporations and governments. Personally, I find it amusing to hear or read all the theories, from the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" which proposes a theory that there has been an ongoing conspiracy to hide the bloodline of Jesus Christ to the theory that "Micro Nukes" were used on the wtc (the concussion of which so damaged wtc 7 that it collapsed later.) I also forgot that the US government has captured UFO's at Area 51, that JFK was shot by no less than three gunmen and that Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy.

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 9:40:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack There have been rumors that Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab was actually deliberately passed by airport security because they were told to do so by U. S. intelligence officials - although I haven't seen this actually confirmed. I just wonder, like with urban legends, how these rumors begin. I mean, since no one anywhere will cite a source or contact or sliver of information, what causes anyone to consider this to be true? There isn't even a blurry photo, a witness to the grassy knoll.... All there is is a suspicion that some Evil Force inside the Gummint (most likely the ZOG at that) must be guilty of something. we don't kno what, but we are sure that THEY are guilty of something. Deranged inndividuals don't just exist in the world. No, Big Events demand a Big Explanation. I mean seriously, IB, where did you hear this "rumor"? Did you overhear a guy at the bus stop? Was it whispered by a man smoking cigarettes in the shadows of a parking structure? Did it come to you in a peyote fueled vision? Seriously- tell us where you heard this rumor, and what causes you to give it more credence than say, Creationism and the 6,000 year old earth. All right, here we go... Here is the Metro Detroit News article describing the eye witness account of Kurt Haskell, who was on the plane, saw the bomber burst into flames and saw the bomber board the plane. Kurt Haskell's accounts of what happened were initially discredited by the FBI until he managed to achieve enough notoriety to get his story out: http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/12/flight_253_passenger_says_at_l.html Here is a Detroit News article discussing how the State Department deliberately asked not to have Mr. Abdulmutallab's visa revoked: "The State Department didn't revoke the visa of foiled terrorism suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab because federal counterterrorism officials had begged off revocation, a top State Department official revealed Wednesday. Patrick F. Kennedy, an undersecretary for management at the State Department, said Abdulmutallab's visa wasn't taken away because intelligence officials asked his agency not to deny a visa to the suspected terrorist over concerns that a denial would've foiled a larger investigation into al-Qaida threats against the United States." http://detnews.com/article/20100127/NATION/1270405/Terror-suspect-kept-visa-to-avoid-tipping-off-larger-investigation Here is a much more detailed description of the arguements that the underwear bomber was deliberately allowed on the flight. Please note - this is a blog and not a news article but it's the blog of Lori Haskell, Kurt's wife, who was also on the flight: http://haskellfamily.blogspot.com/2010/01/truth-about-flight-253-has-been.html Please also note - I didn't say that any of this has been substantiated - but it's not a grassy knoll theory. These are comments from people who were on the flight and newspaper articles detailing events. I'm sure if you do a google search you'll turn up more. I just put in "congressdaily" and "terrorist watch list" and got this article: http://gsn.nti.org/gsn/nw_20100122_5496.php Which says: "In an unusual and startling admission, Michael Leiter, director of the National Counterterrorism Center, disclosed the practice during a Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee hearing Wednesday. "I will tell you, that when people come to the country and they are on the watch list, it is because we have generally made the choice that we want them here in the country for some reason or another," Leiter said. On Thursday, a U.S. intelligence official confirmed that people who are on three of four federal terrorist watch lists are sometimes allowed into the country. "In certain situations it's to our advantage to be able to track individuals who might be on a terrorist watch list because you can learn something from their activities and their contacts," the official said. Decide for yourself.

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 9:44:58 PM)
Whatever the truth is, concerning the underwear bomber, he is in jail, personally I think that he deserves the death penalty for trying to blow up the plane. Sooner or later, some group of the lunatic fringe is going to turn this into something more sinister.

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/17/2010 9:57:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Sooner or later, some group of the lunatic fringe is going to turn this into something more sinister. I think a lot of this "terror doom" scenario stuff is just bogus. These guys aren't armed with high technology, chemical weapons, carefully constructed nano-viruses or nuclear weapons. They hijacked a plane with box cutters. One guy had a sneaker bomb he was trying to light with a lighter. That's the level they're operating at. They don't have big money or high technology. They're not James Bond villains with secret bases in volacnos and orbital death rays. They're guys who make impromptu explosives out of whatever's available or that they can get cheaply and easily. They're not meeting in a secret base filled with an army of trained assassins - a handful of guys are meeting in some dingy apartment or small cafe and coming up with a plan they can do over a weekend. It's not high-tech masterminds running an evil organization - it's open-source terrorism. Some disgruntled nut reads an Al-Qaeda manifesto off the Internet, decides he needs to strike a blow for his faith, sends a few e-mails or makes a few phone calls, and then grabs a rifle and starts shooting people or builds a bomb from the detergent under his sink.That means they can't blow up a city and kill millions of people - they don't have the resources. It does mean that finding all of these guys and making sure they can't do anything is going to be nigh unto impossible.

Termyn8or -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 8:15:30 AM)
"These guys aren't armed with high technology" With the absence of a couple of big buildings in NYC, this seems to indicate that neither does our supposedly superior defense. Which is it, conspiracy or failure ? T

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 8:49:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "These guys aren't armed with high technology" With the absence of a couple of big buildings in NYC, this seems to indicate that neither does our supposedly superior defense. Which is it, conspiracy or failure ? T Maybe neither. Maybe it's just, "shit happens." No defense system or security procedure is perfect; there will always be ways around it. You, of all people, should know this - with all the threads you start about this particular scheme to beat an insurance company, or that plan to outwit a bank, or some other idea to get around this law enforcement agency or another, you ought to know there's always some way to get around anything. No matter how many ways you can think of to protect something, there are always going to be some things you didn't think of but that someone else did; or things you did think of, but just couldn't put in place because you can only do so much. The defense, whatever it is, has to win every single time. The guys they're defending against only have to get lucky once. And if someone keeps trying enough times, it's inevitable that they're eventually going to get lucky. It makes me bang my head against the desk to see a whole country full of people who think they've got some god-given right to never have anything bad happen to them. Shit happens. At the end of the day, sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, the other guy wins. It doesn't mean an entire system failed.

Moonhead -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 9:54:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam You folks are talking about a nuclear attack. All you need for a 'dirty bomb' is an old x-ray machine and a stick of dynamite. You're aware that it's been proven impossible to make a dirty bomb that can spread radioactive material effectively? The CIA wasted ten years dicking about with that one.

Moonhead -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 9:57:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "These guys aren't armed with high technology" With the absence of a couple of big buildings in NYC, this seems to indicate that neither does our supposedly superior defense. Which is it, conspiracy or failure ? T I'm not sure, but I think Powell suggested shooting down the airliners as soon as they left their courses and stopped signalling, but this was vetoed (presumably by Cheney as the chimp was busy patronising schoolchildren on the afternoon in question...) Of course, you didn't do exclusion zones in the 'States back then anyway. Hopefully you do now.

mcbride -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 12:51:06 PM)
It amazes me, in retrospect, how little play that got. quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex Those trillions were bundled up, piled onto wooden pallets, shrink wrapped, and sent over to Iraq under care of Halliburton. Never to be seen again!

Moonhead -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 1:51:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride It amazes me, in retrospect, how little play that got. quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex Those trillions were bundled up, piled onto wooden pallets, shrink wrapped, and sent over to Iraq under care of Halliburton. Never to be seen again! Give the number of people there are on here bleating about government waste and corruption, yep indeedy. I can see aneirin's point, but I think he's giving the conspiracy theorists far too much credit. It isn't keeping an open mind, it's closing your mind off along the lines that appeals to you most. Whatever your irrational prejudice is, there's a conspiracy theory out there that's made just for you. Just look up Fred Cowan on Wiki for a good example of how much harm this sort of nonsense can cause.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 3:44:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride It amazes me, in retrospect, how little play that got. quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex Those trillions were bundled up, piled onto wooden pallets, shrink wrapped, and sent over to Iraq under care of Halliburton. Never to be seen again! It got little play because its b u l l s h i t !

Rule -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 6:41:01 PM)
I have suspected from the very first moment that the story was reported in the news that it was a black ops event. It was his mission to get on the plane with an explosive and to fail in the attempt to set it off - and the USA knew all about it in advance, because they gave him that mission. Reasons: 1. The underwear bomb guy was the son of a JUDGE. 2. He was reputedly connected to AQ and that is a CIA group. 3. The USA had been warned of his arrival by the judge, his father, but admitted him anyway. 4. The guy had only recently joined the 'terrorists'. I also suspect that the Dutch hero also was told in advance what to expect and how to act. The main purpose of the exercise appears to have been to sway people to implement more advanced scanners at airports, and perhaps also to keep public animosity against muslims high.

AnimusRex -> RE: Lets Yell Wolf (2/18/2010 6:45:35 PM)
IB- I haven't read through your links, but I admit, I stand corrected- your thoughts are not a grassy knoll woo woo thing; there apparently is some reason to think the government allowed a guy on a watch list to keep his visa, possibly because he was part of an ongoing investigation. You did your homework, and whether it proves to be true or not, it is a reasonable theory. You were right, and I was wrong. (how often do you here THAT online?) Now I am off to smoke some peyote, in hopes of a vision....

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