RE: A legend returns ... (Full Version)

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lusciouslips19 -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:11:58 PM)

Oooops. Wrong thread.



juliaoceania -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:12:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

One thing I can tell ya is those boys were sweet. Jefff, like the cowardly lion. Domi remnded me of the "Beave"

Ah, those sweet innocent eyes looking at me adorlingly. That I will always remember....


So how hop bonded are they?



BLoved -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:17:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
If you believe in gender equality, why is it wrong for women to post nude photos?


For the same reason it is wrong for men ... it demonstrates low self-esteem and encourages others to abuse the individual.

quote:


Why is it wrong to be bisexual?


I've never said it is wrong to be bisexual.

My wife was bisexual.

quote:


Why is it wrong to have a poly relationship?


I support the closed poly paradigm. I believe it is possible for a deep, meaningful loving relationship to develop between more than two people. However, note that I would only support such a relationship involving a life-long commitment between the members of the relationship, as would be the case in a monogamous relationship.

quote:

What makes this unethical?

If two people are enjoying themselves at a play party and one wants to be spanked and the other wants to spank, why is this a problem?


Neither is in a position to determine with any certainty that the other is capable of making such a decision freely, or is driven to it due to low self-esteem, damage caused by past abuse, etc.

Thus neither is in a position to feel confident that the intended activity won't further damage the other, or trigger an episode, etc.

Furthermore there is no reason to feel confident one can handle whatever behaviour might manifest in response to a triggered memory or symptoms arising from past abuse.

quote:


You equate this behavior to ABUSE...


Yes. A lack of concern for the emotional well-being or the ability to provide meaningful consent so that one can experience a cheap thrill demonstrates a degree of selfishness which I consider abusive.

quote:


it shows me you do not know what abuse is, perhaps never having suffered it. Abuse takes place in every socio-economic class and every ethnic group. It is not confined to the world of BDSM. It is prevalent everywhere. People survive it and move on and build better lives...


And many don't, crushed by the experience and unable to find outside suport, perhaps even unaware on a conscious level of how the damage is acting on them.

Are you suggesting it's 'Open Season' on people such as these?

Do we have no obligation to determine a person's ability to provide meaningful consent?

Or is it enough to have no more than a pulse?



alicenwondrland -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:17:39 PM)

quote:

It irritates me that he paints people who willingly engage in sexual behaviors as being abused. There are people walking around that are really abused with no clear cut way to get out of it.


Yes, I think it's his lack of communication skills that he connects the two- there's alot of hyperbole and extreme thinking, rather than specificity in the way he views the "anathema" that is casual sex/BDSM and those who engage in it. I think Bob [sm=waves.gif]means casual sex/BDSM is expoitation but keeps labeling it "abuse", he bandies the words around alot like they are interchangeable and they're not. It's insulting to consenting adults, both men and women. He doesn't seem to see all the shades in between or the variety of reasons why people need certain things. I'm personally a bit repressed- prudish even- but it suits my personality in a way that my mentality can not suit other people. Whenever a lifestyle or worldview is forced on other people, nothing good comes of it. Better to have alot of lax-ness and casual behaviors among alot of people and committed monogamy among a few- than alot of committed monogamy and casual behavior among a few- and ALOT of misery and deception.

quote:

Now, are there damaged people who engage in BDSM? Well hell yes there are! If these people are being damaged previously by an abuser and because of this past abuse find themselves attracted to this lifestyle, well it is the original abuser that is to blame, and the person who hasn't learned to heal themselves, not really the person who spanked their ass at the local dungeon. We have to take responsibility for ourselves at some point along the way, no better time than today..


Also, damaged people may very well be vanilla and have an entire behavioral gamut of possible forms of exploitation, abuse AND casual sex. I am not sure why, or if, he is limiting his negative view of casual sex to BDSM when it occurs in so many other vanilla contexts (emotional manipulation,cheating, lying, physical abuse, verbal abuse, exploitation of all forms)... perhaps just because he is into BDSM himself.





alicenwondrland -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:21:27 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

One thing I can tell ya is those boys were sweet. Jefff, like the cowardly lion. Domi remnded me of the "Beave"

Ah, those sweet innocent eyes looking at me adorlingly. That I will always remember....


hahaha I cant HELP laughing at 'The Beave' image when I only see that mean-ass Tupac Shakur avatar heh. and his unabashed hatred for archaeology. I'll be laughing at that for a while [:D]



BLoved -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:22:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Seriously, you do act as though submissives cannot be counted on to protect themselves just because of their role, which just isn't true


You continue to project and rage.



xxblushesxx -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:27:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alicenwondrland

quote:


My very first post to you was in regards to your complaint that older men kept contacting you and you didn't like it. I mentioned that since your screen name (at the time) was WendyDarling, that they were perhaps boys who never grew up...(like Peter Pan)

The rest of your comments are untrue. (and confusing.) (except for the fact that you DID in FACT admit to being born male. You know it, I know it, the mods know it, so give it up.)

If a mod needs to call me out, I am sure they will do so. I have been nothing but civilized to you since you've been here. You've done nothing but try to stir the pot.


Well that comment was fine- I am thinking of the following ones, when things got nasty. I PROMISE you that you were vicious to me. I will check the link tomorrow.

What are you talking about??? MODS? Know my biological sex? What are they geneticists? Have they somehow seen my birth certificate? Consulted my alleged sex-change doctors? WTF is wrong with you?

Mind-numbing how you continue on this ridiculous tract- is this all you have to insult me? You are a sly one aren't you?

Heh

I am contacting the mods anyway and inquiring about this.



I have never been vicious to anyone here.
(well maybe the lady who moved in with a man she had never met and her daughter was raped and beaten by him, but I was PISSED)



alicenwondrland -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:33:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
It irritates me that he paints people who willingly engage in sexual behaviors as being abused. There are people walking around that are really abused with no clear cut way to get out of it. Now, are there damaged people who engage in BDSM? Well hell yes there are! If these people are being damaged previously by an abuser and because of this past abuse find themselves attracted to this lifestyle, well it is the original abuser that is to blame, and the person who hasn't learned to heal themselves, not really the person who spanked their ass at the local dungeon. We have to take responsibility for ourselves at some point along the way, no better time than today..


And what of the dom who refuses to take responsibility for who he chooses as a partner?

Do I not have a responsibility to ensure the person with whom I consent to engage in such a relationship is capable of it, her judgment unimpaired by previous damage?

Or does my responsibility end after checking for a pulse?

If I neglect my responsibility to ensure my partner is capable of meaningful consent, how responsible am I for further damaging my partner?



Bob, I think I see what you are getting at. And it's funny,  I've seen the same type of thing happen before on the boards, with other people- men usually, who are advocating for a higher level of responsibility for the doms. They state anecdotes of subs they know who've been hurt physically by doms inadvertently and feel there's too much lax behavior. The women usually respond with a rolling of the eyes, "we can handle ourselves" kind of response. I can understand both views. I suppose, the doms may want to collectively have the "let's be more careful" discussion amongst themselves, and the subs have the "let's be more careful" discussion amongst themselves. But I think the most important thing of all ultimately is to just listen to eachother. Even if someone is emotionally vulnerable, who is to say that being dominated even casually with the right person, isn't better than him/her than not having any experience at all? Can you make that decision for anyone? At the end f the day, you can only listen to people. Let them make up their own minds on what they need and respect that. Human behavior is complicated andridiculously abstract, but it's really that simple if you just pay attention.

It sounds like your conception of 'responsibility' bleeds into territory that is squarely the other person's and theirs alone. This is why Julia sensed your views are a bit patriarchal and don't give enough credence to women's own ability to choose and have responsibility.[;)]



juliaoceania -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:35:39 PM)

quote:

For the same reason it is wrong for men ... it demonstrates low self-esteem and encourages others to abuse the individual.


Hmmmmm.... I do not agree. It can demonstrate low self esteem, but it can also be an expression of the individual's sensuality and even be artistic. I think the human body is beautiful... at least some of them are[:D]

quote:

I support the closed poly paradigm. I believe it is possible for a deep, meaningful loving relationship to develop between more than two people. However, note that I would only support such a relationship involving a life-long commitment between the members of the relationship, as would be the case in a monogamous relationship.


So any sex outside of a committed relationship is wrong to you... hmmmm... just do not agree with that either. Some people enjoy sex for sex sake... and those people should be shagging each other...It is Darwinian. I am not a Christian person with a bunch of hang ups, people wanna mate, even if they are not currently in love. The wrong thing would be to lead people on or to lie to them to get sex, but being honest and upfront about needs, well there is nothing wrong in that.

quote:

Neither is in a position to determine with any certainty that the other is capable of making such a decision freely, or is driven to it due to low self-esteem, damage caused by past abuse, etc.

Thus neither is in a position to feel confident that the intended activity won't further damage the other, or trigger an episode, etc.

Furthermore there is no reason to feel confident one can handle whatever behaviour might manifest in response to a triggered memory or symptoms arising from past abuse.


I think far more people are damaged by people they believe love them than by casual partners. I have never been hurt by anyone i wasn't involved with for a long time, because it is those people I trusted enough to give them access to my heart.... I cannot imagine giving a casual partner enough power to hurt me emotionally. I do not play casually because without letting someone close enough to be vulnerable to them, it doesn't appeal, but to others it does....

quote:

Yes. A lack of concern for the emotional well-being or the ability to provide meaningful consent so that one can experience a cheap thrill demonstrates a degree of selfishness which I consider abusive.





How can you measure another person's lack of concern or their motivations toward another... are you psychic?


quote:

And many don't, crushed by the experience and unable to find outside suport, perhaps even unaware on a conscious level of how the damage is acting on them.

Are you suggesting it's 'Open Season' on people such as these?

Do we have no obligation to determine a person's ability to provide meaningful consent?

Or is it enough to have no more than a pulse?


You know, this is where circular logic comes in, when people claim that they operate in a healthy way and are happy, you just pull the "you are unaware" card on them and that solidifies your position in your mind... hard to argue with someone that has judged you as unaware... seriously... that is just not cool.






juliaoceania -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:38:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Seriously, you do act as though submissives cannot be counted on to protect themselves just because of their role, which just isn't true


You continue to project and rage.



No... I am not.. but that is the only way you can deflect my points... which shows you lack your own



alicenwondrland -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:39:43 PM)

quote:

I have never been vicious to anyone here.
(well maybe the lady who moved in with a man she had never met and her daughter was raped and beaten by him, but I was PISSED)


Well let me just put it this way. I felt that somewhere along the line that you were- and in fact were only a bit ago. And out of the blue. When I wasn't expecting it. That's the thing about the internet, I mean it's like the scale is just *off*- I read some of that thread and it feels like you were just as mean to me as you were to that person. It's sort of messed u that a person can be attacked so viciously, when there are people out there being idiots and sacrificing their own children to predators, and they get away with it (that woman should be in jail for child neglect- she is unfit to raise a child if her decisions are that moronic). I didn't deserve the way I was treated (like a child-neglecter). All it started with was me politely inquiring about demographics and later jovially tongue in cheek mentioning that I am 'young and hot' (that I was pushed into in order to explain why I wanted a young man because no one accepted my desire). Big deal! But ok fine. I have no interest in pursuing the issue.





alicenwondrland -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:41:23 PM)

quote:

and ra
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Seriously, you do act as though submissives cannot be counted on to protect themselves just because of their role, which just isn't true


You continue to project and rage.




This thread is gold.

Stop raging Julia, stop throwing things and banging pots and pans and screaming and threatening suicide and all that hear me? Stop raging!



BLoved -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:42:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alicenwondrland
Even if someone is emotionally vulnerable, who is to say that being dominated even casually with the right person, isn't better than him/her than not having any experience at all?


Impatience + Impetuosity = Recipe for Disaster.

quote:


It sounds like your conception of 'responsibility' bleeds into territory that is squarely the other person's and theirs alone.


Then you are arguing that all we need do is check for a pulse, and ignore the fact the individual is unconscious from too much drugs or booze. The fact she's at the play party at all shows she's consented to whatever anyone wants to do. If someone decides to use a base-ball bat, or a car battery, or make some permanent body mods that's all ok?

We're not responsible for the condition of our partner?



juliaoceania -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:43:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alicenwondrland

quote:

and ra
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Seriously, you do act as though submissives cannot be counted on to protect themselves just because of their role, which just isn't true


You continue to project and rage.




This thread is gold.

Stop raging Julia, stop throwing things and banging pots and pans and screaming and threatening suicide and all that hear me? Stop raging!



I am more bored than enraged... this is beginning to get circular and tiresome.....



BLoved -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:47:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
No... I am not.. but that is the only way you can deflect my points... which shows you lack your own


Julia, you aren't making any points against me, because you are neither describing me nor listening to me.

You are only manifesting the symptoms of your insecurity and rage.



juliaoceania -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:47:33 PM)

quote:

Then you are arguing that all we need do is check for a pulse, and ignore the fact the individual is unconscious from too much drugs or booze. The fact she's at the play party at all shows she's consented to whatever anyone wants to do. If someone decides to use a base-ball bat, or a car battery, or make some permanent body mods that's all ok?

We're not responsible for the condition of our partner?


This is all black and white to you...

Lets paint another scenario... a sub and a dom are friends, have been so for 5 years.. the sub is suddenly available, he has seen her at the dungeon with her former dom many times... they talk, they negotiate a scene, he plays with her, then he takes care of her afterward... maybe even takes her home with him to make sure she is okay, depending on the scene... He calls her or stops by her place the next day because he is good friends with her, he knows this shit before they even play... so is that abuse? Is he callous? Is he only checking for a pulse?

I have never been an active member of the public scene, but from what I know it is a smallish sort of world and the scenario I painted above would be more common than the one you described from what I have read and heard...



xxblushesxx -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:48:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alicenwondrland

quote:

I have never been vicious to anyone here.
(well maybe the lady who moved in with a man she had never met and her daughter was raped and beaten by him, but I was PISSED)


Well let me just put it this way. I felt that somewhere along the line that you were- and in fact were only a bit ago. And out of the blue. When I wasn't expecting it. That's the thing about the internet, I mean it's like the scale is just *off*- I read some of that thread and it feels like you were just as mean to me as you were to that person. It's sort of messed u that a person can be attacked so viciously, when there are people out there being idiots and sacrificing their own children to predators, and they get away with it (that woman should be in jail for child neglect- she is unfit to raise a child if her decisions are that moronic). I didn't deserve the way I was treated (like a child-neglecter). All it started with was me politely inquiring about demographics and later jovially tongue in cheek mentioning that I am 'young and hot' (that I was pushed into in order to explain why I wanted a young man because no one accepted my desire). Big deal! But ok fine. I have no interest in pursuing the issue.





You need to re-read it. Some of us tried to help you even when you were obviously bating.
I will say that some things can be misconstrued when not heard and seen in person.



SweetDommes -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:49:24 PM)

[sm=beatdeadhorse.gif]



alicenwondrland -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:49:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: alicenwondrland
Even if someone is emotionally vulnerable, who is to say that being dominated even casually with the right person, isn't better than him/her than not having any experience at all?


Impatience + Impetuosity = Recipe for Disaster.

quote:


It sounds like your conception of 'responsibility' bleeds into territory that is squarely the other person's and theirs alone.


Then you are arguing that all we need do is check for a pulse, and ignore the fact the individual is unconscious from too much drugs or booze. The fact she's at the play party at all shows she's consented to whatever anyone wants to do. If someone decides to use a base-ball bat, or a car battery, or make some permanent body mods that's all ok?

We're not responsible for the condition of our partner?



No of course not- and there all kinds of pitfalls and dangers in the scene (I imagine- Ive only been to fetish parties which are more about the goth scene than the actual BDSM scene). I was referring to one of the posts above.



juliaoceania -> RE: A legend returns ... (2/18/2010 9:50:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

[sm=beatdeadhorse.gif]


Yes... I know



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