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Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discriminatio... - 2/18/2010 7:02:24 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I don't understand and I don't appreciate the evil that motivates this kind of action. All human beings deserve equal rights. I believe gay people should have the right to get married and be miserable just like the rest of us as well as equal protections for employment.

Virginia's New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimination Protections For Gay State Workers

Gay and lesbian state workers in Virginia are no longer specifically protected against discrimination, thanks to a little-noticed change made by new Gov. Bob McDonnell.

McDonnell (R) on Feb. 5 signed an executive order that prohibits discrimination "on the basis of race, sex, color, national origin, religion, age, political affiliation, or against otherwise qualified persons with disabilities," as well as veterans.

It rescinds the order that Gov. Tim Kaine signed Jan. 14, 2006 as one of his first actions. After promising a "fair and inclusive" administration in his inaugural address, Kaine (D) added veterans to the non-discrimination policy - and sexual orientation.

McDonnell's office sent along this memo from his chief of staff that they have suggested to reporters prevents any and all discrimination. It reads, in part:

It shall be the policy of the office of the Governor to ensure equal opportunity in the workplace, encourage excellence by rewarding achievement based on merit, and prohibit discrimination for any reason. Hiring, promotion, discipline and termination of employees shall be based on qualifications, performance and results.

But the LGBT trade press sees it as a "sad" development that strips state workers of protections that they had under the last administration.

Kaine declined to comment through spokesman Hari Sevugan, who said McDonnell should be "ashamed" for the new policy.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/02/virginia-gov-bob-mcdonnell-rolls-back-non-discrimination-protections-for-gay-state-workers.php?ref=fpb

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/18/2010 7:39:50 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		That might be just one of the reasons that Kaine got booted out of office..

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/18/2010 8:37:10 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Kaine didn't get booted- VA has term limits. Kaine was actually pretty popular.

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/19/2010 4:20:25 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Kaine didn't get booted- VA has term limits. Kaine was actually pretty popular.

That's a bit depressing if the arse was doing shit like that.

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/19/2010 4:22:50 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It shall be the policy of the office of the Governor to ensure equal opportunity in the workplace, encourage excellence by rewarding achievement based on merit, and prohibit discrimination for any reason. Hiring, promotion, discipline and termination of employees shall be based on qualifications, performance and results.


I agree with the above.  I think people should be rewarded for their achievments and that employers should prohibit discrimination for ANY reason. 

While I agree that it sends the wrong message to remove the wording to exclude sexual orientation, I think it's also getting difficult for employers to cover every single possibility of how discrimination could occur.  Employers do discriminate against smokers in many companies.  I know why they do but is it fair?  Could they discriminate against the obese next?  People with a predisposition to cancer? I mean isn't easier to simply prohibit discrimination for any reason?  People simply hired based on experience and qualifications, terminated based on performance and results?

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/19/2010 8:20:39 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		In a free market discrimination ultimately is not an issue. Employers that don't hire and retain the most qualified workers for reasons other than profitability put themselves at a competitive disadvantage. On the other hand if some attribute of an employee DOES make that employee less profitable then the employer should be able to take that into account, no matter what it is.

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/19/2010 8:25:55 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Unfortunately, your last two sentences don't make sentence one true. Employers will discriminate even given the competitive disadvantage, as people make decisions on more than purely economic considerations. Further, not all employers are necessarily economically savvy either.

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/19/2010 8:27:45 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		So, all we lack then for this little utopia is the free market system.

Ron

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/19/2010 8:35:19 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Adam Smith did not mean what he is often made to say
by Jonathan Schlefer
The Atlantic Online

ONE of the most often distorted passages in economic literature is surely Adam Smith's aside about the invisible hand of the market. In Economics, which has been the leading college text on the subject since the 1950s, Paul A. Samuelson and William D. Nordhaus concocted a typical variant of Smith's actual remarks. They pulled them from the midst of a paragraph hundreds of pages into The Wealth of Nations, presumed to streamline the prose by chopping and splicing without using ellipses, and elevated the result into the theme of Smith's entire thousand-page book.

Every individual endeavors to employ his capital so that its produce may be of greatest value. He generally neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. He intends only his own security, only his own gain. And he is in this led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. [italics added by author]

This makes Smith sound as if he thought that the invisible hand always leads individuals who are pursuing their own interests to promote the good of society. He did not. He saw the interests of large capitalists as conflicting with those of the public: capitalists seek high profits, which corrupt and impoverish society. In another example the famous division of labor increases factory output but erodes the intelligence, enterprise, and character of workers. Smith's passage on the invisible hand says only that it operates "in this as in many other cases" -- not always, not even mostly.

--rest of article--

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98mar/misquote.htm

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/19/2010 10:45:54 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Unfortunately, your last two sentences don't make sentence one true. Employers will discriminate even given the competitive disadvantage, as people make decisions on more than purely economic considerations. Further, not all employers are necessarily economically savvy either.


Then they ultimately would fail (again, in a theoretical free market that could never exist).

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/21/2010 2:53:12 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		MM

Thanks for posting the link to the article- it gave me a new found appreciation of Adam Smith. I'm not sure we've learned so much more about economics since Smith's time- the one institution that Smith, Ricardo, and Marx failed to see was the rise of the labor unions. With their declining importance, we do seem to be returning to a mercantilist age- along with a two tiered economy- never a good plan for a democracy.

Sam

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/21/2010 3:21:52 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Then they ultimately would fail (again, in a theoretical free market that could never exist).


Which is exactly where I think the conservative movement has driven off the cliff. They worship Capitalism, in the most abstracted and theoretical way, that could not ever exist.
This is exactly the thinking and methodoligy of the Left during most of the 1900's; they never cared about practical solutions, only dogmatic religious prescriptions.
Since it is taboo to question the theory, any failure must be explained by other factors, no matter what.

So for example if the Great Leap Forward didn't work, the only possible explanation was that the theory was not applied hard enough, or pure enough, or long enough.

Or if Wall Street crashes from speculative fever, it must be that capitalism wasn't given a chance, or pursued deeply enough, or long enough.

Both the Old Left and the present day conservatives share the belief that there is One Perfect System that can solve all our problems; they aren't willing to tolerate a mixed complex world where free markets and government regulations and public systems all share space and work together; instead they see purity and simplicity as the ultimate goals.

The basis of science, as others here have pointed out, is testability; if something can't be tested and proven true or untrue, then it is faith, not science. The second part of this is that empirical evidence trumps hypothesis.

There has never, ever in the history of the world been a successful society that was purely capitalistic or socialistic; the only ones that have ever been tried were spectacular failures.

So believing in the perfection of hypotheticals like government command economies, or purely free market economies requires an act of stupendous childlike faith, not reason.

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/21/2010 5:08:56 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Rex

Couldn't agree more- well said.

Sam

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/21/2010 8:31:38 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

In a free market discrimination ultimately is not an issue. Employers that don't hire and retain the most qualified workers for reasons other than profitability put themselves at a competitive disadvantage. On the other hand if some attribute of an employee DOES make that employee less profitable then the employer should be able to take that into account, no matter what it is.
Previous posters have given you logical and concrete examples/reasons of why this doesn't work...so no need for me to revisit those areas.....rather I would like to point out that in a great many instances people tend to be assholes( for proof of this please look in a mirror) hence to protect others from these assholes we craft legislation to prevent these abuses and codify practices so as to level the playing field for all....rather than sit back and wait, content that "the market will correct" ......I would add that I hope this is all cleared up for you.....but lets be honest none of this is actually confusing to you at all.....is it?

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RE: Virginias New GOP Governor Rolls Back Non-Discrimin... - 2/23/2010 11:29:43 AM   
MistressRoux


Posts: 118
Joined: 2/20/2010
Status: offline 		mais oui.

way to pick em, va!

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