quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I see the use of feminine wiles, or as I more crudely often put it 'the power of the pussy', as a form of dominance. Which is why I also see many female 'submissives' as the passively dominant partner in a relationship. A prime example is artie and star.

The down side of this sort of dominance in my eyes, is that it is so strongly based upon physical desirability that I often wonder, what will become of those women as they age. If all of their allure and self value is determined by sexuality and physical beauty, what happens when it fades?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I see the use of feminine wiles, or as I more crudely often put it 'the power of the pussy', as a form of dominance. Which is why I also see many female 'submissives' as the passively dominant partner in a relationship. A prime example is artie and star.

The down side of this sort of dominance in my eyes, is that it is so strongly based upon physical desirability that I often wonder, what will become of those women as they age. If all of their allure and self value is determined by sexuality and physical beauty, what happens when it fades?

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ORIGINAL: BreathandStone
I consider myself a leader and a caretaker.  I also tend to see people, and relationships, as constantly growing and developing.  This influences my answers. 

There are many kinds of power.  I supervise people at work, and therefore have power over them, but this is tremendously different from the kind of power that I have over a sub.  I'm not necessarily dominant at all while working: my job is to guide the people who need guidance, lead the people who need to be led, and trust that I've trained them all well enough to do their jobs without me micromanaging.  The hard part of my job is not being the dominant one, it's letting go and letting people make their own mistakes so that they can learn to be stronger and better people when I'm not there. 
 
As someone who can relate to the leader/caretaker role, the bolded portion above, in my opinion, shows dominance...at least the way I view dominant behavior/traits.  This is strictly my own view and based on my own background and influences, D/s or otherwise.  It also ties into what I stated in my op..."To be dominant, you should strive for control of yourself and you life/circumstances first and foremost. Not in a manipulative or passive-aggressive manner, but with determination and integrity tempered with grace and compassion.".  Do you feel you're taking a leadership role by guiding those you help towards a position of strength and betterment?  Do you see leadership as a dominant behavior?  


When I express my D/s dominance with a person, I'm changing the way that they behave in relation to me, the way that we work as a team.  When I use my power at work, I'm trying to change the way that they work independent of me.  If I use my "feminine wiles" or the raw power of my sexuality on someone, I'm not changing them at all - I'm simply providing a stimulus that makes them behave in predictable ways.  I'm changing myself temporarily but having no lasting effect on the person I'm with. 

Being all feminine and wiley may give me a kind of power over another person.  However, that power is limited.  I can make him do, X, Y, and Z thing that he's already conditioned to do in response to female sexuality, but it will be very difficult to create novel behaviors using sexuality alone.  Pavlovian conditioning--teaching someone to be aroused in response to X, for example--is not extraordinarily difficult when dealing purely with sex.  Teaching someone to manage their finances is harder. 

I agree with the last part of this statement.  Thank you for your reply...you're right, people are constantly growing and developing.  That's what this thread was for me....just another step.

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
How women can be leaders and dominant varies across time and culture. In the movie example, it would have difficult for a woman to lead in many other ways beyond manipulating others around her. Currently it is much easier for a woman to be recognized as a leader and as having authority or the right to exercise her command. Thus we may see manipulation as something other than dominance.

But we should not forget that it is still not widely accepted that women and men have the equal capabilities to lead and to have authority. Therefore women who by nature wish to lead may still do things that look manipulative to us. Choosing this route has it's serious pitfalls again as the movie used by the OP demonstrates because if caught or if she mismanages her power she will see her status in her society decrease dramatically, perhaps with deadly consequences.

I think that is true of men also though they often start with more assumed authority depending on the culture and time.

Wow....this reply hit on exactly what I was getting at with my movie example, thanks for putting this in the words my uncaffeinated brain couldn't!
 
During our last presidential election, I saw many examples of the press commenting on Sarah Palin's use of her feminine wiles and how Hillary Clinton was stiff and unable to show this side.  Depending on who this came from...right or left side....the use of feminine wiles was seen as a positive or a negative. 
 
Now, I'm not wanting to turn this into a political/feminist thread...we know how those go and I've had enough nonsense and bickering around here to last awhile...but I do think it's curious to note how society still views manipulation and flirty enticement as a female trait sometimes.  I was curious how this played into a D/s dynamic and if it was an expectation.
Thank you for the thought-provoking post.

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ORIGINAL: Lockit

To me, being flirty is different than feminine wiles. Being flirty is a personality thing to me and isn't manipulative. It is more having fun and playful and is done by both to work well.

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ORIGINAL: CarrieO
I have always been of the belief that dominance is not only a position in the bedroom but a position in life.  To be dominant, you should strive for control of yourself and you life/circumstances first and foremost. Not in a manipulative or passive-aggressive manner, but with determination and integrity tempered with grace and compassion.

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ORIGINAL: CarrieO

Again...thanks for the responses so far.  I'm really hoping to hear from some of our male regulars...it would help to round things out a bit....hint hint.

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ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

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ORIGINAL: CarrieO

Again...thanks for the responses so far.  I'm really hoping to hear from some of our male regulars...it would help to round things out a bit....hint hint.

I don't know if I qualify as a regular, but here's my (personal) male perspective.

I'm sorry...you qualify

To me the element of deception distinguishes the use of feminine wiles from what I would think of as domination. If I understand correctly what you mean by feminine wiles, the victim ideally does not even realise that he is being controlled and manipulated - he just goes on trying to please his femme fatale in the hope of being rewarded with her attention and affection, probably assuming a degree of spontaneity and sincerity in her reactions that doesn't really exist. The whole thing takes place without any explicit shared understanding that the man is submitting to the woman's authority, and therefore without any conscious power exchange.

Yes, the bolded portion above is what I was alluding to when I mentioned feminine wiles (believe it or not, I'm getting tired of typing those two words), at least in the classical "femme fatal" sense.  Circe, from The Odyssey, could also be used as an example...luring her "victims" astray by enticing them with the offer of food and rest. 
I think it's this image of the bewitching seductress who uses her "ways" to achieve her desired goal.  Again, I wonder where those "ways" stop being natural assertive dominance and become, instead, manipulative control.  I also was wondering if this type of behavior was accepted...if not also expected...of the dominant woman by the submissive men they're attracting.

I do think beauty and seductiveness can have their place in female domination, but more as part of the package that might lead a man to choose submission (as opposed to an actual means of establishing control). We male submissives are usually more likely to kneel to women we find alluring, other things being equal, and of course we want to please them. What distinguishes this from the "feminine wiles" scenario is that we're going into the situation with our eyes open: we acknowledge that the beautiful woman standing over us is the one in command, and that she'll be telling us what do to and expecting us to strive and possibly suffer for her. There's no pretense, as there often is with a classic femme fatale, that we'll somehow "win" her if we do just one more little thing to make her happy - we understand that she won us the minute our knees hit the floor, and that making her happy might be the business of a lifetime.

That made perfect sense, thank you, especially the bolded portion.  It's the "eyes open" part that changes the dynamic from that of manipulation to one of submission inspiried by honest control...if that makes sense (I'm feeling a bit flowery myself).

Goodness, I seem to be feeling a bit more flowery than usual. I hope some of that made sense.

Thank you for this reply...it always helps to get a man's perspective, especially a submissive man. 

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ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO
I have always been of the belief that dominance is not only a position in the bedroom but a position in life.  To be dominant, you should strive for control of yourself and you life/circumstances first and foremost. Not in a manipulative or passive-aggressive manner, but with determination and integrity tempered with grace and compassion.

Nail.  Head. Hammer.  Hit.

I find it very difficult to have respect for "feminine wiles" and those who use them.  In a way, what you're really saying is that you totally lack the maturity, strength, competence and courage to solve your own problems and deal with your own issues like an adult.  Prostituting your charms to get other people to solve your problems for you is, IMO, not in the least bit dominant.  Or mature, or responsible. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO

When I think of the phrase "feminine wiles", what comes to mind, for me, are images of the classic femme fatale...the bewitching seductress who uses her beauty and charm to lead a man astray or to get him to do what she wants regardless of the consequences for him.

She may choose to manipulate or control the situation at any given moment

I have always been of the belief that dominance is not only a position in the bedroom but a position in life.  To be dominant, you should strive for control of yourself and you life/circumstances first and foremost. Not in a manipulative or passive-aggressive manner, but with determination and integrity tempered with grace and compassion.

*My questions for the women..... Do you view female dominance different from male dominance?  Do you use feminine wiles to achieve goals within your relationship with your sub?  How do you define these wiles?  Do you feel the expectations attached to female dominantion are different from male domination and if so, how?