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Brain -> The Bankruptcy Boys (2/22/2010 9:37:13 PM)

It would appear a financial crisis is inevitable and that means insolvency. Astonishing that Republicans are fiscally irresponsible refusing to raise any taxes and refusing to make cuts in spending programs because that means losing votes.


Unfortunately I don't see a solution to this impasse because when voters are unhappy with Democrats for being ineffective they vote Republican, like they did in Massachusetts.  Republicans are worse than  Democrats so people should vote for independents or alternative candidates, even tea party candidates would be better.  It astonishes me the Republican Party, a party I was a member of,  has deteriorated into a disgraceful state of pathetic selfish uselessness obsessed with regaining power.  

I am a little encouraged with Scott Brown's vote for that recent jobs bill but it’s a modest bill and he’s going to have to do more in the future to prove to me how he's truly bipartisan. And even if he does it doesn't mean I can extend the same positive attributes to the Republican Party.

The Bankruptcy Boys  


For readers who don’t know what I’m talking about: ever since Reagan, the G.O.P. has been run by people who want a much smaller government. In the famous words of the activist Grover Norquist, conservatives want to get the government “down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub.”

But there has always been a political problem with this agenda. Voters may say that they oppose big government, but the programs that actually dominate federal spending — Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security — are very popular. So how can the public be persuaded to accept large spending cuts?

The conservative answer, which evolved in the late 1970s, would be dubbed “starving the beast” during the Reagan years. The idea — propounded by many members of the conservative intelligentsia, from Alan Greenspan to Irving Kristol — was basically that sympathetic politicians should engage in a game of bait and switch. Rather than proposing unpopular spending cuts, Republicans would push through popular tax cuts, with the deliberate intention of worsening the government’s fiscal position.
Spending cuts could then be sold as a necessity rather than a choice, the only way to eliminate an unsustainable budget deficit.

And the deficit came. True, more than half of this year’s budget deficit is the result of the Great Recession, which has both depressed revenues and required a temporary surge in spending to contain the damage. But even when the crisis is over, the budget will remain deeply in the red, largely as a result of Bush-era tax cuts (and Bush-era unfunded wars). And the combination of an aging population and rising medical costs will, unless something is done, lead to explosive debt growth after 2020.

So the beast is starving, as planned. It should be time, then, for conservatives to explain which parts of the beast they want to cut. And President Obama has, in effect, invited them to do just that, by calling for a bipartisan deficit commission.

Many progressives were deeply worried by this proposal, fearing that it would turn into a kind of Trojan horse — in particular, that the commission would end up reviving the long-standing Republican goal of gutting Social Security. But they needn’t have worried: Senate Republicans overwhelmingly voted against legislation that would have created a commission with some actual power, and it is unlikely that anything meaningful will come from the much weaker commission Mr. Obama established by executive order.

Why are Republicans reluctant to sit down and talk? Because they would then be forced to put up or shut up. Since they’re adamantly opposed to reducing the deficit with tax increases, they would have to explain what spending they want to cut. And guess what? After three decades of preparing the ground for this moment, they’re still not willing to do that.

In fact, conservatives have backed away from spending cuts they themselves proposed in the past. In the 1990s, for example, Republicans in Congress tried to force through sharp cuts in Medicare. But now they have made opposition to any effort to spend Medicare funds more wisely the core of their campaign against health care reform (death panels!). And presidential hopefuls say things like this, from Gov. Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota: “I don’t think anybody’s gonna go back now and say, Let’s abolish, or reduce, Medicare and Medicaid.”

What about Social Security? Five years ago the Bush administration proposed limiting future payments to upper- and middle-income workers, in effect means-testing retirement benefits. But in December, The Wall Street Journal’s editorial page denounced any such means-testing, because “middle- and upper-middle-class (i.e., G.O.P.) voters would get less than they were promised in return for a lifetime of payroll taxes.” (Hmm. Since when do conservatives openly admit that the G.O.P. is the party of the affluent?)

At this point, then, Republicans insist that the deficit must be eliminated, but they’re not willing either to raise taxes or to support cuts in any major government programs. And they’re not willing to participate in serious bipartisan discussions, either, because that might force them to explain their plan — and there isn’t any plan, except to regain power.

But there is a kind of logic to the current Republican position: in effect, the party is doubling down on starve-the-beast. Depriving the government of revenue, it turns out, wasn’t enough to push politicians into dismantling the welfare state. So now the de facto strategy is to oppose any responsible action until we are in the midst of a fiscal catastrophe. You read it here first.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/22/opinion/22krugman.html




DarkSteven -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/22/2010 9:47:21 PM)

Dunno if I agree.

First off, calling the cut-taxes-and-spend folks "conservatives" is not precise... fiscal conservatives believe in a balanced budget.  AFAIK, Reagan pioneered the idea of ballooning deficits.  I think that the basic popularity is that people would rather pay later than now.  The deficit increases were sold with the promise that the resulting kick to the economy would more than cover the foregone taxes (the Laffer curve).

One of the few good things about Bush is that he pretty much proved that tax cuts don;t stimulate the economy anywhere near as much as they were supposed to.  He managed to take a strong but cooling economy and wreck it completely, while cutting taxes.

The article's premise, that the deficit increase is a sneaky way to shrink government - intriguing but I don't buy it.  I think it's simply that politicians are promising that you can have your cake and not pay for it too.




MrRodgers -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/22/2010 11:42:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Dunno if I agree.

First off, calling the cut-taxes-and-spend folks "conservatives" is not precise... fiscal conservatives believe in a balanced budget.  AFAIK, Reagan pioneered the idea of ballooning deficits.  I think that the basic popularity is that people would rather pay later than now.  The deficit increases were sold with the promise that the resulting kick to the economy would more than cover the foregone taxes (the Laffer curve).

One of the few good things about Bush is that he pretty much proved that tax cuts don;t stimulate the economy anywhere near as much as they were supposed to.  He managed to take a strong but cooling economy and wreck it completely, while cutting taxes.

The article's premise, that the deficit increase is a sneaky way to shrink government - intriguing but I don't buy it.  I think it's simply that politicians are promising that you can have your cake and not pay for it too.

First, fiscal conservatives don't exist. The last may have been Gerald Ford. Second, the OP has it correct. The Republicans care only about power and money...for themselves and their patrons, as long as we can pay the debt service.

The current debt service is approx. 10 cents on the dollar of all federal spending. That gives the plutocrats freedom to continue to borrow.




rulemylife -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 5:31:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The article's premise, that the deficit increase is a sneaky way to shrink government - intriguing but I don't buy it. 



It really isn't a premise and there was nothing sneaky about it, this has been an established and admitted goal of many fiscal conservatives and the politicians who pandered to them. 

Both Reagan and Bush were very open about this being a primary reason for their tax cuts.


Starve the beast - Wikipedia


In recent years, one of the most common metaphors for using tax ...





InvisibleBlack -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 8:57:52 AM)

- FR -

As time goes on, Paul Krugman becomes more and more partisan and less and less accurate in his editorials. It's a pity because he's a first-class thinker but once you tilt off the table and let your agenda color your thesis the validity of your work becomes questionable.

Ronald Reagan's initial philosophy was that tax increases were undesirable but sometimes necessary. During his terms in office, Ronald Reagan approved thirteen different tax increases, including one of the largest in 1982 - so it is erroneous to say that he was uniltaerally against tax increases or that he thought the only solution was cutting taxes.

The 1982 tax increase was part of a compromise deal with the Democratic Congress. They were supposed to in turn enact significant budget cuts - which they did not - reneging on their part of the deal. Several of Reagan's aides (such as Edwin Meese, James Watt and Jim Baker) claimed that the heads of Congress went so far as to mock President Reagan for being stupid and gullible enough to make the deal.

Whether this is true or not, the results of the 1982 tax increase and the failure of the Congress to respond with cuts had the result of Reagan fully latching on to the "starve the beast" strategy. This wasn't some secret. It wasn't subtle or hidden. He flat out said it. I was aware of it at the time and I was a teenager. Reagan determined that Congress was incapable of cutting the budget and concluded that the only possible method of forcing any sort of fiscal responsibility was to choke off funding by refusing any tax increases until the budget deficit became so huge that cuts would become necessary.

Reagan and Congress were extremely hostile to each other during his second term and Reagan's budgets were considered "dead on arrival" - a direct quote by (I believe) House Speaker Tip O'Neill. To give Ronald Reagan sole credit for the deficits of the 1980s is entirely bogus.

Amazingly enough, however - Reagan's strategy worked and the government's deficits became a big enough issue that the Congress eventually passed the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985  and the Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Reaffirmation Act of 1987, which put forward a schedule of budget ceilings, requiring mandatory budget cuts if they were exceeded and leading to a balanced budget.

This whole plan was undone in 1990, when Congress was first faced with making serious cuts, with the Budget Enforcement Act of 1990 - which changed the deficit targets. Signing this act into law, along with breaking his "no new taxes" pledge are part of what destroyed President Bush.

I don't have the time to find links to all of this. It's all out there if you want to search on the right terms. It's not like any of this was mysterious or secret. Paul Krugman's arguments are specious.

Reagan did not believe that deficits had no meaning - Dick Cheney is entirely misreading Reagan's strategy and plan. At no time was anyone engaging in a "bait and switch" - Greenspan and Kemp and Norquist and their ilk weren't quiet about the "starve the beast" concept - they were outspoken.

If anything I would say the big change from 1984 to 2004 is that in 1984 the Reagan administration believed that a ballooning deficit would be viewed with such alarm that it would force fiscal integrity. In 1990 the first Bush administration and in 2004 the second Bush administration showed that when faced with a choice of not spending or going bankrupt - the typical politician will choose bankruptcy.

While he made mistakes, Ronald Reagan actually did have a strategy and thought-out policies. Some of it worked out quite well, some of it did not, but it was neither random nor badly intentioned. Sadly, the Republican party has turned much of Reagan's policy into dogma or religious scripture, which they then interpret as they see fit rather than understanding the reasoning behind the actions.

Not that this is unique to the Right, by any means.




Termyn8or -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 9:02:39 AM)

FR

The horse has left the barn. Come back to Horatio Bunce. All of this shit is due to things that our tax dollars should not be spent on, by law.

At this point in time I should be on my way to work, so it is costing me money to type this. Therefore I figure I'd gaive you a few quotes. These are quotes that you will not find, they are what, after reading the Constitution, that I did NOT find to be within the government's resposibilities :

To provide for people's retirement.

To provide people's health care.

To secure shipping routes so foreign enemies can destroy our thriving economy.

To prop up about a hundred governments so our politicians' friends can oppress people.

To save people from a natural disaster, even in this country.

To give foreign aid to countries with a higher GDP per capita than our own, or anyone.

To put a Man on the moon.

To monitor people's communications.

To put unfunded mandates before state and local governments.

To sieze people's property for anything other than a felony.

This list can go on for quite some time. Each and every one of them is currently being done here. Unlawfully. So if you really wonder where your tax dollars go, and why they can't get anything done here, wonder no more. The founding Fathers knew not to fall into these traps, but people got stupid, and as such elected "leaders" who are incredibly stupid or insanely greedy.

That's right, it started with us, and the fact is it can only end with us. We have to stop. We need people talking on the bus about who to vote for based on the best interests of our country, not on who will send them a bigger check. And that means a tax refund as well as welfare. We produce the gravy and only we can stop the gravy train.

Think about it, writing your congressman doesn't mean shit. Right now voting him out doesn't mean shit because the next one might be worse. Those with the higher ideals are strictly excluded from the club. Some are persecuted, or shall I dub that Trafficanted ? He was convicted because someone in his office was paying a lawyer bill. (an oversimplification I know, but for now it works).

It is happening slowly. People are getting sick of TV and media. People are sick of making a thousand a week and taking home six hundred of it. People are running out of money (read gravy). And some are waking up. Like the Japanese General told the Emperor during WW2 "We have awoken a sleeping giant". Give it a few years. They will take more and more until there is nothing left to take. As time goes by more and more people will see this scam for what it is, and then there is no turning back. I just hope we get to hang a shitload of these MFs before they escape.

I have outlined a viable plan for real recovery elswhere and will not reiterate it here. But it would require some sacrifice from everyone, and people just don't want to hear that. When that changes, get back to me.

T




mnottertail -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 9:10:04 AM)

IB, and I usually gotta agree right down the line with you. In the spirit of compromise I will give you some of that, but also disagree with a great deal of Reagans positives insofar as budgets and trickledowns you claim, using right off Stockman and WR Grace. I was involved in some of the crap he did with SDI research (1983 and on) and he spent gabillions off book off book as well.

Now, if we exclude military, yeah he spent a little more than Carter.







InvisibleBlack -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 9:39:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

IB, and I usually gotta agree right down the line with you. In the spirit of compromise I will give you some of that, but also disagree with a great deal of Reagans positives insofar as budgets and trickledowns you claim, using right off Stockman and WR Grace. I was involved in some of the crap he did with SDI research (1983 and on) and he spent gabillions off book off book as well.

Now, if we exclude military, yeah he spent a little more than Carter.


I'm not arguing that the supply-side tax cuts or trickle-down worked as he claimed they would. The big tax cut on the upper bracket - from 70 percent to 28 percent actually did result in more tax revenue from that high-income group. The other tax reductions didn't see a revenue increase. I could go into why but I'd have to draw the Laffer Curve and that's more detail than I can go into right now. The fact that dropping the tax rate from 70 to 28 worked doesn't mean that dropping it from 28 to 20 would do you any good nor that raising it from 28 to, say, 30 would hurt.

I could also argue that the economic growth that started in his term was more due to his ending of the Nixon wage and price controls and due to the introduction of easy credit to the consumer (something I don't think Reagan had anything to do with, one way or the other ) than any tax incentives or changes.

Supposedly his military spending was part of an overall plan to get into an arms race with the Soviet Union that they couldn't win and overheat their economy. I've read a number of sources who claim this but I've never actually heard Reagan claim it himself. He definitely made the point over and over again that he was for a strong defense and an aggressive stance against the Soviets and Communism.

Like I said, I'm not claiming that Reagan was perfect, or that everything he did worked. I'm saying that Paul Krugman's stance that our current problems are all somehow based on Ronald Reagan's disregard for deficits in any circumstances and a secret scheme to "starve the beast" - is erroneous. At the end of Regan's presidency there was a plan in place, and two bills passed by Congress and approved by him, to achieve a balanced budget and I have to assume this is because he viewed deficit reduction and balancing the budget as a worthy goal.




samboct -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 12:43:58 PM)

IB

I'm a bit older than you, and I recall the Reagan years a bit differently. Reagan was pretty steadfast in what he wanted- whether or not it was legal and whether or not anyone agreed with him. My take on the Social Security issue was that Reagan was adamantly opposed to what he claimed were government handouts including social security and AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) aka welfare. Welfare was a program that actually worked as intended, by providing a safety cushion for working mothers (the primary recipients) in the event of job loss or divorce. I also recall the massive disinformation campaign conducted by the Neocons focusing on multi generation welfare families. Yes, they did exist- but they were actually very, very, hard to find. Most of the money went to people who were part of the program for less than 5 years- (it's probably much less than that-I just don't have the original article in Science that went through it.)

Reagan was always claiming that Congress wouldn't let him do things like dismantle social security, welfare, and supply arms to the Contras. There were also lots of shady banking deals IIRC amongst his supporters- Keating 5 maybe? I think Reagan was simply quite facile about doing an about face- hence his moniker of teflon man. So that when he couldn't get Congress to remove programs he wanted gone- he came up with the bankrupt the beast philosophy- and it wasn't a secret as far as I remember either- but does Krugman claim it was? So if he did another about face at the end of his term and decided that balanced budgets were a good idea- the fact that this was inconsistent with his earlier position doesn't really mean much- Reagan certainly was wily when it came to getting what he wanted.

In terms of the wage/price controls- wasn't it under Nixon that the nonsense of work weeks of 30 hours being "part time" and thereby exempt from health insurance requirements came into play? That bill was pushed hard by McDonalds, and has had an enormous effect on weakening the middle class. Walmart is carrying it on with a vengeance- some ridiculously small percentage of their employees actually have health insurance- the rest are encouraged to apply for federal and state assistance.

I also remember some jiggery pokery with statistics involving unemployment. My comment is that economic growth during Reagan was pretty tepid at best, and favored only a few. Not as bad as during Bush II, but certainly not the growth that happened during Kennedy/Johnson.

Sam




MrRodgers -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 1:03:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The article's premise, that the deficit increase is a sneaky way to shrink government - intriguing but I don't buy it. 



It really isn't a premise and there was nothing sneaky about it, this has been an established and admitted goal of many fiscal conservatives and the politicians who pandered to them. 

Both Reagan and Bush were very open about this being a primary reason for their tax cuts.

Starve the beast - Wikipedia

In recent years, one of the most common metaphors for using tax ...

Look Reagan simply called himself conservative and wasn't. Those that genuflect at his name were given cover to do the same...call them conservatives while being big-govt. deficit spenders.

Like I said...Reagan played ball...and played ball with the bankers. The

Bushes followed suit. Liberals have the crazy idea you should pay for what you get...right now. That requires taxes.




rulemylife -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 1:08:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

At the end of Regan's presidency there was a plan in place, and two bills passed by Congress and approved by him, to achieve a balanced budget and I have to assume this is because he viewed deficit reduction and balancing the budget as a worthy goal.


Yes, Uncle Ronnie viewed balancing the budget as a worthy goal at the end of his his presidency.

Of course during his presidency he didn't seem too concerned as the national debt doubled and we became a debtor nation.  




Mercnbeth -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 1:32:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
At the end of Regan's presidency there was a plan in place, and two bills passed by Congress and approved by him, to achieve a balanced budget and I have to assume this is because he viewed deficit reduction and balancing the budget as a worthy goal.
Yes, Uncle Ronnie viewed balancing the budget as a worthy goal at the end of his his presidency.
Of course during his presidency he didn't seem too concerned as the national debt doubled and we became a debtor nation.


President Obama following the war and economic spending policy of not one but two Republican Presidents Bush and Reagan! Wow! Did he run under the wrong party banner, or is it he just doesn't have the ability to come up with anything different than the examples provided by Bush and Reagan? What do you think?




InvisibleBlack -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 2:19:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

IB

I'm a bit older than you, and I recall the Reagan years a bit differently. Reagan was pretty steadfast in what he wanted- whether or not it was legal and whether or not anyone agreed with him. My take on the Social Security issue was that Reagan was adamantly opposed to what he claimed were government handouts including social security and AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) aka welfare. Welfare was a program that actually worked as intended, by providing a safety cushion for working mothers (the primary recipients) in the event of job loss or divorce. I also recall the massive disinformation campaign conducted by the Neocons focusing on multi generation welfare families. Yes, they did exist- but they were actually very, very, hard to find. Most of the money went to people who were part of the program for less than 5 years- (it's probably much less than that-I just don't have the original article in Science that went through it.)


I won't argue that Reagan was absolutely against "government  handouts" as he viewed them, including AFDC. I never said he was a nice guy - I said he had policies and a strategy.

Social Security effectively went bankrupt in (I think) 1981. There was a panic and a bi-partisan commission was put together to pull it out. The chairman of this group? Our buddy, Alan Greenspan. The result was that they both raised taxes and cut benefits to buy SS more time. They then had a couple of decades to institue some real reform which, of course, nobody ever did. I don't think Reagan can take the hit for this, as the commission's recommendations were passed by Congress. As I recall, both the Democrats and the Republicans went for it.

quote:

Reagan was always claiming that Congress wouldn't let him do things like dismantle social security, welfare, and supply arms to the Contras. There were also lots of shady banking deals IIRC amongst his supporters- Keating 5 maybe?


To be fair, they wouldn't - his claims weren't a lie.

I don't recall shady bank deals amongst Reagan's supporters. Most of the snafus I can recall were in the realm of foreign policy. I think they got Meese for accepting an illegal gift from Japan. The Iran-Contra stuff was all illegal arms deals.

The Keating Five were four Democrats and one Republican. The four Democrats - Alan Cranston, Dennis DeConcini, John Glenn and Don Riegle are all gone now. The one Republican - John McCain - somehow went on to become viewed as a champion of campaign finance reform and ethics in government. I have no idea how. I don't believe that Reagan or his advisors had any involvement in this scandal. As I recall, it was members of the Senate interfering with the regulators.

Which is not to say that there might not have been some other banking shenanigans going on involving the White House that I'm unaware of.

quote:

I think Reagan was simply quite facile about doing an about face- hence his moniker of teflon man. So that when he couldn't get Congress to remove programs he wanted gone- he came up with the bankrupt the beast philosophy- and it wasn't a secret as far as I remember either- but does Krugman claim it was?


I think the term "bait & switch" pretty much implies some sort of deception going on.


quote:

So if he did another about face at the end of his term and decided that balanced budgets were a good idea- the fact that this was inconsistent with his earlier position doesn't really mean much- Reagan certainly was wily when it came to getting what he wanted.



"I know we here today, and a majority of the American people agree on one point: We're not saying we have a terrible problem and Government must find a solution. We're saying Government is the problem and the people have the solution—a constitutional amendment making balanced budgets the law of this land.
 
We in the administration have been working hard to keep pressure on the Congress to get this initiative passed...
 
Unfortunately, as you know, the amendment has been bottled up inside the House Judiciary Committee. I have personally written every Member of the House, asking their support for the Conable discharge petition. We need 218 signatures, and we have now surpassed 200.
 
This afternoon I have just met with a bipartisan group of Congressmen who are co-sponsors of the amendment, but who have not yet signed the discharge petition. I'd like to think some of them now will.
 
I want you to know that I consider passage of this amendment, both in the Congress and in the States, to be a top priority for America. I intend to do everything in my power to bring that about."


That was Ronald Reagan on September 8th, 1982, midway through his first term. The Balanced Budget Admendment didn't pass, but for a while there it had a lot of steam. It came close. Obviously, everyone can believe what they want to believe but I don't think he was being facetious. I think he actually wanted it to pass. When that failed, I think the next option was the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Act - which took fewer votes to pass than a Constitutional amendment.

I don't think it's an all-good or all-evil proposition. I think Reagan fully intended to spend wild amounts on defense deliberately, hated social programs and government spending on what he viewed as "handouts" and wanted the government to be smaller and fiscally responsible.  I think he pushed for deregulation in industries where he thought the government was holding back innovation and in some areas this worked and in others it gave rise to abuses.

There too much of a need to have leaders be saints or demons. They're not. They're just people. You can agree with one thing they do and disagree with another.

I think Reagan had a plan for getting the government budget in line. I think it worked during his time in office and then I think Bush de-railed the plan.

I don't think that Bush Jr. had any sort of master scheme to reduce the size of the government by lowering taxes and raising spending and thus precipitating a crisis. I just think he was an idiot. All the "fiscal conservatives" I know felt entirely betrayed by George W. Bush.


quote:

In terms of the wage/price controls- wasn't it under Nixon that the nonsense of work weeks of 30 hours being "part time" and thereby exempt from health insurance requirements came into play? That bill was pushed hard by McDonalds, and has had an enormous effect on weakening the middle class. Walmart is carrying it on with a vengeance- some ridiculously small percentage of their employees actually have health insurance- the rest are encouraged to apply for federal and state assistance.


The specter of Watergate looms so large that most of Nixon's acts as President are entirely obscured. A number of radical things occurred during Nixon's term in office. He instituted the first peacetime wage and price controls in U. S. history. He created the Environmental Protection Agency. He also took the United States off the gold standard. OSHA and the Clean Air Act are both under Nixon. By today's standards Nixon would probably be considered a warhawk liberal. A very interesting man.


quote:

I also remember some jiggery pokery with statistics involving unemployment. My comment is that economic growth during Reagan was pretty tepid at best, and favored only a few. Not as bad as during Bush II, but certainly not the growth that happened during Kennedy/Johnson.


The two Presidents who fiddled with the way unempoyment is calculated were Reagan and Clinton. That says a lot right there. The unemployment numbers today are entirely bogus.

Calculating economic growth due to a President's policies is a tough deal. You have to allow for time-lag and I don't know if anyone's figured that out. When I did my thesis, I calculated that changes to the tax code take about four years to ripple through the economy and have their full effect. What the effect of wage controls, price controls, adjustments to interest rates, changes to the money supply or anything else might be, I have no idea. I have a sort of sneaking suspicion that major changes might have multiple effects - a short term (0-1 year effect), a medium term (3-5 year) effect and a long term (say 10-12 year) effect. So events happening right now might be the result of actions taken in 1998 or 1999 and only now playing out, as well as actions taken in 2005 or 2006 and the actions taken by President Obama only this year. I've done some very rudimentary investigation of this idea but I lack both the time and the means to do any sort of rigorous analysis.

Overall, from an economic standpoint, I think that Ronald Reagan was a net positive. I can't prove that however and I don't think that anyone can disprove it. If we had that level of understanding at a socio-politico-economic level ... well ... we wouldn't get into the kind of problems we're having now.




samboct -> RE: The Bankruptcy Boys (2/23/2010 3:16:07 PM)

IB

I just went and did a little digging to refresh my memory. I urge anyone who thinks that this crisis we're in now is anything new to do the same.

In terms of Reagan banking scandals- the bank that was supposedly blue chip handling a bunch of the CIA transactions was BCCI. Kerry, back in '88 went and did a lot of digging on this bank, and showed that it was essentially funding terrorists and needed to be shut down. It's a tribute to Bush's campaign that the links between his daddy and his buddies, along with Ronnie didn't come out- although Kerry was the guy who unearthed them.

The Cato institute has an article written at the end of Reagan's term that calls for more deregulation. I will point out that we have now seen the end result of those policies, although to be fair, the article did also call for more oversight of bank capital.

But the scandal that I spaced earlier was the American Savings and Loan- out of Stockton, CA. There was an electronic run on that bank, and people in the treasury ruefully admitted that a $10-$20B problem earlier in Reagan's term had blown up into a $100B problem. Lots of the issue had to do with the bet on $70 oil, which left Texans holding the bag. I think this is where my recollection of Reagan/Bush and buddies making out like bandits from a banking crisis which it seems they helped engineer comes from.

So what I recall was that Reagan and pals pushed hard for banking deregulation and got a savings and loan crisis that carried over to Bush 1. Like Yogi Berra says- Deja Vu all over again....


Sam




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